The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

I apologize for beig sarcastic, however you have yet to site any Biblical evidence to support your "worship" practices.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion

Cool. Now I know where I really got it from. And all this time I thought I got it from SoothingDave. Thanx XeniaSt.

[RobbyS]

The worshipping of the "image" of God or Christ is just as bad as worshipping to an idol because you are limiting the infinite to a picture or a symbol while you are trying to commune. Then why did God order the building of an ark and, later, the building of a temple?

[ksen]

Havoc, when you get a minute would please answer this question?

What is the difference between Salvation and Eternal Life? How can one have Salvation but not have Eternal Life? Where would that “saved” person go if he did not have Eternal Life? If there is a difference, what are we “Saved” from if not from Death unto Life?

Thanks.

-ksen

[DouglasKC]

The worshipping of the "image" of God or Christ is just as bad as worshipping to an idol because you are limiting the infinite to a picture or a symbol while you are trying to commune. Then why did God order the building of an ark and, later, the building of a temple?

Because he could? The ark wasn't supposed to represent God, neither was the temple as far as I know...unless God looks like an ark or a temple, in which case I'm wrong.

[al_c]

God might say, "What part of ANY didn't you understand?"

He might also say, "What part of worship didn't you understand?" You see, the two verses make up one sentence (there's even more, though, discussing the sins of the father) and you can't use one without the other. It basically is saying that we should not make images to worship. When I bow at the altar, it is toward God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit ... not to the crucifix behind the altar or to the altar itself. There IS a difference.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Yes, it is part of the Ordinary Magisterium.

Thank you. Does there exist another kind of Magisterium in addition to the Ordinary Magisterium?

[OLD REGGIE]

Pius IX, Encyclical "Quanto conficamur moerore," 1863: ................................

It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion
..............................

Proddies and IFBB's, can you make heads or tails of this? He seems to be asserting as true two completely mutually exclusive things.

6536 posted on 11/7/01 10:17 AM Mountain by angelo

Maybe it was this:

"But. the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority ... and persistently separate themselves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff ... cannot obtain eternal salvation"

It is the "but" that makes one wonder unless he also thinks the "obstinate" can also be "invincibly ignorant".

I have no idea what is going on, but It is not needed for my salvation.

Absoloutely true!

[SoothingDave]

Would you agree that most people who attend mass should not be receiving communion, because they are not in a state of grace?

Without judging anyone in particular, it certainly is strange that hardly anyone abstains from taking Communion. And Confession is becoming more of a rare practice as well. Draw your own conclusions.

It should be said that in the olden days perhaps people felt too much the weight of sin keeping them "impure" for Communion. The pendulum has swung too far the other way now.

And, if you are not going to participate in the sacrament, is there a qualitative difference in being in the church versus watching it from home?

Is there a qualitative difference between watching the Packers on your RCA versus being at Lambeau Field?

That one is not in a state of grace to receive does not relieve one of the duty to worship and participate as fully as possible.

What about being in the church building, but in a separate crying room with closed-circuit TV?

If need requires (that is an actual crying baby) this concession is given, but one is still expected to make it to the altar for Communion. Likewise if a Churhc is too crowded and overflows onto the sidewalk or an auxiliary building, one can not accuse you of "missing" Mass because one is physically prevented from entering the building.

SD

[SoothingDave]

. If you are not going to receive communion, is it better to stay home and watch the mass on EWTN, or to go to your local clown mass?

As long as the local clown Mass is offering a valid sacrament, one should offer up the suffering to Jesus and go. Then watch EWTN.

SD

[DouglasKC]

When I bow at the altar, it is toward God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit ... not to the crucifix behind the altar or to the altar itself. There IS a difference.

Is it okay to do the physical act as long as you believe you're worshipping God? Does that mean it's okay to murder someone as long as you're worshipping God while you're doing it?

[RobbyS]

The ark wasn't supposed to represent God, neither was the temple as far as I know...unless God looks like an ark or a temple, in which case I'm wrong. But your point was no limiting of god's presence.

[malakhi]

Well. Wasn't what Bonifice said written in your magic sternum?

By golly, it is in there!!!

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Yes, the Extraordinary Magisterium. Only two papal pronouncements are in that category. Numerous pronouncements of ecumenical councils are in it. A solemn definition is what puts a teaching in the Extraordinary Magisterium.

So the pronouncements that came out of vatican II are in the Extraordianry Magisterium?

[SoothingDave]

Was Paul "infallible"? or Peter or James or the Gospel authors?

Being in a position of authority over God's people does NOT mean that you can declare that "the Redskins will win this weekend" and have it be infallible. Each of the examples given above is a fallible man who made many fallible statements, but was still used by God to act in an infallible manner.

Saying that the Redskins will win is prophecy, not declaration of doctrine. Besides your bad example, let us examine the rest of your statement. Were Peter or Paul infallible when they wrote their letters? Yes.

Each of these men were fallible creatures who were used by God to act in an infallible manner. That is exactly what happens when the Pope acts infallibly. Exactly the same thing. We don't mean that everything he says is correct for his entire papcy. We don't mean he never sins. We mean that in certain extraordinary conditions, the Holy Spirit works through him to guarantee truth.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Steven(Invincibly Ignorant) seems to understand it; he should answer it for us.

Huh?

I attempted an answer on your behalf. Forgive me for being so presumptious.

[SoothingDave]

The 2nd commandment precisely and exactly says:

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

This would seem to clearly rule out having a cross or a crucifix or anything else as a "symbol" of your faith. I have heard the following arguments:

"But we're not really worshipping the cross". That doesn't seem to matter. Thou shalt not make ANY graven image

Ahem. You have no graven images in your possession? No images of anything on earth, in the sea or in the heavens?

The literal prohibition is against making anything which images anything else. I bet your computer screen containsd representations of "letters" from the "alphabet." This is a violation.

SD