The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[Havoc]

Me: "Tell me, do you think a Sheep can blaspheme the Holy spirit"

You: No.

Scripture: Acts 5 - read it. These are Christians - saved people who over time sold all they had and lived as a community of Christians using the resources of one another to meet one another's needs. A couple from among this group of believers blasphemed the Holy Spirit and died for it. Scripture, not reason.

[DouglasKC]

Re: Crucifix

This has always bugged me.

The 2nd commandment precisely and exactly says:

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

This would seem to clearly rule out having a cross or a crucifix or anything else as a "symbol" of your faith. I have heard the following arguments:

"But we're not really worshipping the cross". That doesn't seem to matter. Thou shalt not make ANY graven image. When the Hebrews built the golden calf, they didn't really think that they were worshipping the calf, they were worshipping the God behind it.

Another argument: The 10 commandments don't apply to us. Even if you believe that, then what could be more in-your-face to God then doing this?

I think the prohibition is there partly because making an image or symbol limits the infinite nature of God.

[malakhi]

I guess I wasn't clear enough. I was asking you to point out to me where exactly within the document 'Unam Sanctam' I might find the caveat you were talking about.

General statement do not always include all the caveats.

Are there any 'caveats' to Ordinatio Sacerdotalis?

[malakhi]

I am prepared to go this far at the moment. The Church in history often intertwined temporal and spiritual authority in ways which would have been better left undone. It must be understood that the Church filled a vacuum and became in places a gov't by default. It is also true that the church in places had to defend her internal affairs from meddling princes. But I will admit a stubbornness and clinging to temporal power, including the issuance of spiritual threats over temporal matters. This is a mistake and some of the Bull in question displays this attitude. The Church is not infallible in temporal affairs.

On the matter of spiritual vs. temporal authority, fair enough.

[JohnnyM]

please show me where Annanias and Sapphira blasphemed the Holy Spirit or were sent to Hell???

JM

[malakhi]

Shouldn't the Church in the question of More, or Prohibition, or anything, make its voice heard to the local gov't?

Of course! Constitutionally, everyone has the right to petition the government. From a general moral standpoint, you also have a right to make your voice heard.

Nay, shouldn't it demand that the gov't follow the dictates of God?

"Demand"? No. What consequence do you propose the Church institute should the state not acquiesce to the Church's demands?

States that impose "the dictates of God" on their citizens generally are not very pleasant places to live. Secular authority is of this world. The best we can hope for in terms of secular government is 'King Log'. It is utopian to suggest that the kingdom of God can be implemented in this world. We should continue to try to improve the world, but we should be under no illusions as to the likelihood of our success.

[DouglasKC]

Thank you for sharing your journey.

I began studying Judaism with this purpose in mind. I had no intention of becoming Jewish. But as I studied it, it struck a deep chord in me. I felt that God was calling me back to the faith of my ancestors. Ultimately, I resolved my problems with Christianity by rejecting its truth claims.

Since you're the first Jew I've ever engaged in significant religious conversation, you're going to have to answer my questions. :-)

What specifically do Jews deny about Christianity? That there was a Jesus? That he was the messiah?

Thanks for the answers!

[al_c]

When the Hebrews built the golden calf, they didn't really think that they were worshipping the calf, they were worshipping the God behind it.

No, they were worshipping it. It says that in the scripture. But let's address the verse you quote...

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Now, let's complete this verse with Exo 20:5 "thou shalt no bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord the God am a jealous God, ..."

It's pretty clear that God prohibits the making of images for the purpose of worhipping them.

[JHavard]

Well then, we get back to the, "Are the Gospels valid historical documents" question. They check out very well compared to other documents from the ancient world, indeed, quite a bit better than the books of the Old Testament.

I wish you'd stop making references to the Apocryphal like that, it hurts my feelings....(^g^)

[malakhi]

Hi PoorMuttly! New voices are always welcome!

[Invincibly Ignorant]

TO ALL CATHOLICS:

I really wanted to know. Since IMRight is gone for awhile can somebody please tell me if the previously posted Boniface proclamation was ever a part of the Magisterium?

[OLD REGGIE]

Fiendishly clever. However, your plan has one little flaw. ALL YOUR CHEESE ARE BELONG TO US!

That's OK. We're used to the artificial, man made, stuff anyway. Maybe we can fool you too.

[ksen]

please show me where Annanias and Sapphira blasphemed the Holy Spirit or were sent to Hell???

The Scripture does not say any of that. It merely says that they lied to the Holy Spirit and died. Personally I think that when Jesus mentioned about blaspheming the Holy Spirit that it could only be done with Jesus here physically. I do not believe that what Jesus was talking about can be done by us today, it could only be committed during His earthly ministry.

BTW, did you read my #6538? I would be interested in hearing what you think.

-ksen

[RobbyS]

Speaking of historical circumstances, you would do well to ponder those that led to the proclamation of Papal infallability: was is basically the final answer to the old question: in case of dispute between Council and pope, who prevails? Answer? The pope. Beyond him the only appeal is to God.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I'm tellin' ya. Listen to the voice of experience. Conversations about cheese can last a long time.

[Havoc]

So does this mean Boniface was fallible until Vatican II when he got voted a "get out of jail free" card?

LOLOLOL. Sorry, I think that jail ..there is no getting out of. But, I'm sure he's telling all those people with him that their time in purgatory(hell) is almost over because, afterall, he was a "pope" and infallible vicars of Christ just can't expound errors or go to hell..

[DouglasKC]

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

God might say, "What part of ANY didn't you understand?"

God didn't say it was okay to make an image of something on earth, heaven or the water as long as you think you're worshipping me, he said "ANY".

In 20:5, he says "don't bow down before them" OR "worship them". I don't know about you, but I've seen plenty of Christians bowing down before a crucifix or a cross, or a picture of Jesus. The worshipping of the "image" of God or Christ is just as bad as worshipping to an idol because you are limiting the infinite to a picture or a symbol while you are trying to commune.

[malakhi]

Myself, I would agree that SOME are not in a state of grace. To go beyond that would be presumption on my part.

Fair enough. For those who are not, is there a qualitative difference between being in church vs. viewing the mass on TV? I have no point to make here, just curious.

[Uri’el-2012]

XS>Steven(Invincibly Ignorant) seems to understand it; he should answer it for us.
II>Huh?
6594 posted on 11/7/01 11:56 AM Mountain by Invincibly Ignorant

Didn't you get your name from Pius IX, in his famous ======> "Quanto conficamur moerore," 1863: ................................

It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion
..............................

Tehillim (Psalm) 18:46 The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Saviour!

XeniaSt

[malakhi]

Being in a position of authority over God's people does NOT mean that you can declare that "the Redskins will win this weekend" and have it be infallible.

What about Boniface saying "we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff"? Is this issue (what is necessary for salvation) not a matter of faith? Don't Catholics believe that the pope is protected from error in matters of faith and morals?