Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
How does my "thought experiment" differ from that fine definition?
SD
One day, ya'll will learn to listen to me. I've been saying this since I first saw it introduced. It's nothing more than a red herring with which to beat anyone who points out their wrong. It can be shaped and molded to fit any circumstance and they use it to deny the work of the Holy Spirit without having to directly say it. They just point to their one size fits all constantly changing argument and they can claim ignorance when needed while beating you up over something you do not espouse. All the while making poor 'idiots' who trust God and are yet shallow to doubt both themselves and God. As I've always said, God will have his due.
Thank you for reading and appreciating God's words.
Hebrews 4
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
This is flatly a load of Horse hockey!! We are changed and the corruptable puts on incorruptable at death. If you are corruptable at that point, you got more serious problems than your fraudulent doctrines to worry about.
Because the 99% agreement he has with the Church outweighs considerably the 1% where he may be in conflict. Like you said, he wasn't infallible and we don't treat him or any other Father as such.
You throw Augustine in our face because he says that Scripture has paramount authority(could you give me the reference again. Don't want to have to delve back over a 1000+ posts to find it) and then think that it will cause us Catholics to tremble. Yet he believed in the authority of Apostolic Tradition, the authority of the visable Church to bind the conscience of a believer, infant baptism, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the Sacrafice of the Mass, prayers for the dead, Mary's sinlessness, Apostolic succession, the seven Sacraments, the canonical authority of the so-called "Apocrypha", etc... The list goes on and on and on...
How can a man who believes that Scripture is of paramount authority believe in such supposed unscriptural, indeed, it is said by some, anti-Scriptural nonsense? Unless, of course, it is the case that what paramount authority means to Augustine is not the meaning which you are trying to foist upon him.
Augustine is not the trump card you think he is. It would be appriciated if you would stop trying to use him as such.
Pray for John Paul II
Your experiment seemed a little vague to me.
I agree with JohnnyM when he said that if the church Mr. C went to was the Mormon Church, he would then be right to seperate from it. However, if his thoughts led him to stray from a sound Independant Baptist Church, then he would of course be wrong. ;^)
Seriously, your experiment seemed to focused on Mr. C's feelings. Our feelings are not the Holy Spirit. Our feelings can easily be manipulated.
-ksen
Exactly! That's what Purgatory is. It is the change we go through.
SD
Uh, no. Purgatory is a work performed by the person aided by prayers of others - that's by definition of the RCC. The change that happens to a Christian at death according to scripture is instant and a work of God. The two are not complimentary - rather they are contradictory. And erring to the side of truth, the Bible wins.
On purpose.
I agree with JohnnyM when he said that if the church Mr. C went to was the Mormon Church, he would then be right to seperate from it. However, if his thoughts led him to stray from a sound Independant Baptist Church, then he would of course be wrong. ;^)
Can't we think abstractly about Sola Scriptura? I deliberately did not name the new "proposition" which Mr C discovered because I don't want to get into arguments about specifics.
Seriously, your experiment seemed to focused on Mr. C's feelings. Our feelings are not the Holy Spirit. Our feelings can easily be manipulated.
His convictions, which were reached through study, prayer and the help of the Holy Spirit. I thought that some of the non-Catholic/Orthodox here would be able to understand if I stayed away from any one specific.
Try to answer it this way. If you were Mr C what would you do? Would you abide by the authority of the Church you go to? Would you listen to the counsel of your Christian friends? Or would you go with your convictions, especially since the Holy Spirit helped convince you?
To put it a third way, who has the ultimate authority? The Church? Other Christians you trust? Or what the Scripture says (that the Holy Spirit helped you understand)?
SD
SoothingDave: Exactly! That's what Purgatory is. It is the change we go through.
Then we won't spend an awful long time in Purgatory because the verse says:
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." - I Cor 15:52
-ksen
Uh, no. Purgatory is a work performed by the person aided by prayers of others - that's by definition of the RCC.
I know the idea of Christians praying for each other is abhorent to you, but why is it I don't believe you know what the Catholic Church teaches?
Prove that the Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is "a work performed by the person." When will you learn that you don't have the foggiest notion what you are talking about. It's been what? three days in a row I have called you on stating false teachings of the Church. You haven't backed up any of them.
SD
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." - I Cor 15:52
I never said, nor did the Church, that it would take any "time" as we know it.
SD
SD
SD
I'm not giving up until somebody gives me an intelligent response. (I'm counting on the808bass, as usual for this.) I have been told "I don't get it" "I don't have the Spirit" that I am "misrepresenting" things. All I ask is to be told where, how, and why I am "misrepresenting" things.
Good grief, all I'm asking is if Mr C should follow his convictions about what Scripture means. This somehow "mischaracterizes" my opponents philosphy? How can I learn to understand how these folks think if I present examples and am lambasted for it?
SD
SD, I have read your scenario, and put my self in the place of Mr. C, and I did manage to relate to him, except in the conclusions.
I have discovered many truths, which at the time I felt blessed that a commoner like my self could be blessed to find or discover something that men who were giants of faith and much Holier then myself found years ago.
To me, this wasn't a disappointment that others were way ahead of me, but a compliment that I was on the same track as they.
When I was 16, and got my first 1940,-6 cyl Chevy, my step dad showed me how to adjust the overhead valves on it, and of course the engine had to be running and warm to do so.
So there I was, trying to hold a 9/16 box wrench on this moving target, while trying to engage a standard screwdriver into another moving target at the same time.
My inventive mind went to work, and soon I had made a combination wrench/screwdriver, that when you slid the box end of the wrench down over the moving 9/16 lock nut, the screwdriver was mounted on a bracket to the wrench, and it came down over the screwdriver notch at the same time, and easily lined up with the screw, and worked perfectly.
I was so excited with $$$$$ in front of me as I ran to tell Dad what I had, I brought him out to the car, and said watch this, and I gave him a demo of my perfect invention.
Just as I was readying my self to ask him if he wanted in on the ground floor of this amazing discovery, he said.
"Yeh, we used those in the Army"
Well, months later when I decided I had to get out of bed, and make a life again for my self............ Lol,
The point being, I took this as a compliment, because even if it had already been invented by someone else, I felt this connected me to other inventors who were just like me, possibly the first few don't work out, but if you have faith in your gift of inventiveness, it will pay off some day, and for me it was 30 years and 4 patents later when I finally invented a tool that I manufactured and sold nationwide for over 11 years, and was blessed to have my children as a part of the business through their young years.
Now what about Mr.C?....This truth he discovered may have truly been inspirational. but if he had looked outside of his little world, he would have found someone else had came up with the same idea, and from that, he could have told if the world had beat a path to the door of this other person, or if it passed in the night.
If he had loved his Church, he should have held onto his new truth, and worked around it with their present doctrine, and if he wasn't content with that, then if he thought it was that important, he should have done what he was led to do.
The truth he had may have been very important to him, and even to others, so if it made them draw closer to God, and gave them peace of mind to follow this new idea, then so what, does God look to see what building we are in when we pray to him, or does he ask what the name of our orginization is?
I think not, and to God who hears billions of prayers coming to him every day, I doubt seriously if he considers these prayers from these people as confusion or chaotic, they are simply more of his people calling out to him in one voice.
No, he can't....unless he resorts (which is often the case) to texts out of context and texts out of the apoohcrypha. : )
Of course now we'll have to go to the US PTO and search to find out what you've invented. :-)
Now what about Mr.C?....This truth he discovered may have truly been inspirational. but if he had looked outside of his little world, he would have found someone else had came up with the same idea, and from that, he could have told if the world had beat a path to the door of this other person, or if it passed in the night.
Good point. I suppose someone has to have an idea first, but you are right that most people when they have an idea are not alone with it.
If he had loved his Church, he should have held onto his new truth, and worked around it with their present doctrine, and if he wasn't content with that, then if he thought it was that important, he should have done what he was led to do.
I'll buy that.
The truth he had may have been very important to him, and even to others, so if it made them draw closer to God, and gave them peace of mind to follow this new idea, then so what, does God look to see what building we are in when we pray to him, or does he ask what the name of our orginization is?
Nope. Being listed on the roles somewhere doesn't do anything.
SD
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