The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[JohnnyM]

ksen: This passage says that if it were possible to fall away(lose your salvation) then the only way to "be saved" again is to crucify Jesus again.

the808bass: No it doesn't.

"Oh, okay. I would like to hear what you think it is saying. If I am wrong I will gladly admit it."

You hit the nail on the head ksen, and I too am curious what bass thinks.

JM

[SoothingDave]

Hey Dave ... good game last night, eh? Hedberg really came alive after the first period! Of course, I enjoyed last year's 8-1 drumming much more.

I was wondering if you were watching. I missed the first period, but saw the rest. Personally, I thought "the Moose" came alive right when Modano shot his penalty shot. :-)

That wasn't even a good call. The years I've watched Jagr and Lemieux get mugged a lot worse than that and they never got a shot for it. Oh well, can't complain today. :-)

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Well, seeing as where his belief in Scripture CAME from, I'd say, quite a lot, wouldn't you?

Oh! His belief in Scripture came from the Roman Catholic Church? BTW. Can you tell me when the Church changed from catholic to Catholic to Roman?

[al_c]

I agree with your statement,

Yahoo!! I believe this is a first for me to have one of you guys come right out and say we agree.

I think we agree on much more than on that which we disagree.

but

Darn:( I knew there was a catch.

Isn't there always? ;o)

we are still called to avoid sin. Why?

All through the book of 1 John it tells us Why, Because it only makes sense that we are going to love God when we understand why and from what he saved us. And to show are love for him we will keep his commandments. It;s really very simple. Not keeping the cammandments mind you, just why we should avoid sin.

Good answer. But (oops ... there it is again) when we sin, does that mean we don't love God? I mean, we're not perfect by any means. I know He understands that, so why do the scriptures tell us to "be perfect?"

[al_c]

That wasn't even a good call.

I can't say ... I missed the penalty. I was getting a bit miffed at the Stars and started switching back and forth between a movie and the game. What was the call?

[the808bass]

However,that passage says nothing about those who came early,may have worked three,four hours and decided "the heck with this" and went home. To prove your point,the passage would have had to show that the landowner sent his servants out to find the ones who left midday and insist that they take the dinaro that evryone else received. It seems to me that the message is,if you "work" in my fields and your here at the end,I will reward you as I please.No?

That's not the idea I am addressing. I am addressing the idea that grace is analog, that somehow our [believers] standing with God is on a scale. This seems to say that our reward is the same for the late arrivers and the early arrivers. That would seem to negate the idea of grace on a scale. If the one who works all day receives the same reward as the ones who worked a short time, it would seem to say that God's grace is given to all who believe, regardless of "time served."

[JohnnyM]

"But (oops ... there it is again) when we sin, does that mean we don't love God?"

Here's an analogy. When you get mad at your wife (assuming your married) or you do something that dissappoints your wife, does that mean you don't love her???

JM

[JohnnyM]

nicely put bass.

JM

[the808bass]

Not every Tom, Dick, and layman.

I think that would be true of most Protestant "councils" as well. I think most Proddie's conventions would be made up of ministers and probably some lay representatives of the church, hardly every Tom, Dick and layman.

[SoothingDave]

OK, let's fasten our safety belts and place our seat backs and tray tables in their full upright and locked positions. We're going to take a little thought experiment.

Let us imagine a Christian, let's call him Mr. C. Mr C has been reading Scripture and been feeling the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit leads Mr C to a fuller understanding of Scripture and he comes to understand a new truth, let us call it Proposition P.

Convinced by his reading of Scripture, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and sure of the ultimate authority of Scripture, Mr C takes his Prop P to his Church. The leaders of the Church, which does not hold Prop P to be true, in fact holds it false, consider Mr C's proposal. They study Scripture and the mind of the Church and determine that MR C is mistaken. They attempt to explain from Scriptural context and from the general understanding of the Church why Prop P is wrong.

Mr C takes this counsel and returns to his room. He prays for guidance from the Holy Spirit and considers everything his Church leaders told him. After further study he is convinced that he is right and sadly, his Church is wrong.

Mr C goes to some of his friends, also Christians, and tells them of his Prop P. His friends appeal to him from Scripture and the common Christian understanding. Mr C can accept their arguments, but is convinced that the outlook given to him by the Holy Spirit overrides them.

Mr C returns to his room and again prays for inspiration from the Holy Spirit and begins to study again. He considers the arguments made by his friends, but can not shake the idea that this new Truth revealed to him by the Holy Spirit is True indeed.

So Mr C sadly has to leave his present Church and take his new Truth to the world, convinced that he must win hearts and minds to this newly understood Proposition.

**************************************************

OK, friends and neighbors. Would you consider this a fair story illustrating Sola Scriptura in action? Mr C didn't just blindly believe the first thing he thought, he sought out counsel from Church and Christians. He entertained other ideas. But at the end of the day he was compelled to believe what Scripture said. To him. Through his inspired reading and study.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Listen, I could produce more quotes on Augustine's belief and defense of Tradition, Apostolic Succession, the authority of the deuterocanon(aka "Apocrypha"), an ordained Priesthood, the authority of Councils, the Sacraments, Mary, etc... But I think that I have demonstrated that Augustine was Catholic through and through and that any attempt to make him into some sort of proto-Protestant is an exercise in futility.

Listen, St. Augustine is not my hero, he is your hero. The "Catholic through and through" had some beliefs which were/are in direct with current RCC doctrine. You choose to ignore them. Why?

1. Because the Church hadn't taken a firm position on these issues yet.

2. Because he wasn't infallible.

3. Because no one said he was correct on all issues, he was capable of error just like any other human.

4. Because we reserve the right to go through the salad and throw out the carrots if we choose to do so.

5. Just because.

[SoothingDave]

I can't say ... I missed the penalty. I was getting a bit miffed at the Stars and started switching back and forth between a movie and the game. What was the call?

Just typical hockey. Modano got a loose puck behind one of our guys at our blue line and a stick got swung low and Modano fell down. OK, maybe slashing or tripping. But they called a penalty shot, which is supposed to be reserved for blatant violence against a breakaway player who is in position to score. He wasn't really "broken away" and he wasn't even winding up to shoot or anything. Let me just say that if this is a new standard for the league, we'll probably see a penalty shot every other game.

SD

[SoothingDave]

BTW. Can you tell me when the Church changed from catholic to Catholic to Roman?

I don't think we can say exactly when "Catholic" became a proper name. Even when it was merely an adjective it still referred to the same institution.

Now the "Roman" thing came in when the Anglicans broke from Rome and wished to pretend they were still Catholic. So they developed "Roman" as a modifier and as a pejoritive.

SD

[JohnnyM]

would Mr.C be Martin Luther???

JM

[the808bass]

First, thanks for your participation in the forum. We always enjoy new contributors (have you been here earlier?)

The verses in Hebrews are addressed to believers who the writer is attempting to move on to Christianity. Keep in mind the early church was often a subset of the local synagogue. Many still retained a lot (if not all) of their Jewish beliefs and practices and added Jesus' teachings to it. John is addressed (I believe) to the same group. So, the writer wants the hearer to not be stuck only on the "foundation" of repentance from dead works, faith in God, baptisms, etc. These are all doctrines that Judaism and Christianity have in common. He wants them to move beyond their Judaism to "perfection."

He then addresses something far worse than remaining at a standstill in the Christian life. He is probably adressing readers who are losing the will to persevere (10:35ff, 12:3,12). More to come. Thanks for your patience.

[SoothingDave]

This seems to say that our reward is the same for the late arrivers and the early arrivers. That would seem to negate the idea of grace on a scale. If the one who works all day receives the same reward as the ones who worked a short time, it would seem to say that God's grace is given to all who believe, regardless of "time served."

Yeah, but if grace is truly a transforming grace those of us working all our lives have had more of this transformation already accomplished. The end result may be the same eventually. If the "reward" is a mere acquittal then you are absolutely correct. If the reward is sufficient grace to sanctify ourselves then I am right.

And then there's purgatory...

SD

[SoothingDave]

would Mr.C be Martin Luther???

It really doesn't matter. It could be. I am trying to deliberatly separate any particular "idea" about which we may argue from an understanding of the process. Does my story sound like a reasonable application of Sola Scriptura?

SD

[JohnnyM]

And then there's purgatory

Yet another construct by the Catholic Church, eventhough there is NO scriptural backing and flies in the face of the Lazurus/Rich Man story in look, and the robber on the Cross.

JM

[JohnnyM]

bah, she read Luke not "look". Curse these fat fingers.

JM