Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
That's for starters. I know that you believe what you are saying. But you're assuming that your (the RCC) interpretation of the verse is true. It's fine to have beliefs and it's good to hold to them staunchly. However, to pretend that it is the only possible interpretation is fanciful. To simply state something with conviction is not a proof.
Christ also told Peter..."whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." This here by Jesus himself gives authority to Peter to govern HIS church. Therefore the authority of the one who sits in the chair of Peter is a true authority of God's established Church, since Peter was given the keys to Heaven and his established laws of the Church which are bound in Heaven. GOD DOES NOT LIE AND CAN'T.
Further..St Paul says there is one Christ and one baptism. What he is saying there is ONE FAITH.
what is it that keeps its hold on you, what would happen for you if you let it go?
This may just sound like justification to some, especially those that believe I was scared by the catholic church and carry a grudge against them, but that is not really the case. Not being a Unitartition (sp) but a fundamentalist, and still having my whole family catholic, causes me concern that I hope people understand but don't take offense at:) Sooo...what keeps it's hold of me so to speak is"
1. A way to convince a catholic to take a differnt look at there faih.
2. Or find a way for me to view their faith differently, so that I can feel more comfortable about my family.
Becky
I just looked it up in three different greek dictionaries. It is a relevant and valid interpretation. You're too hung up, it would seem, on the word usury instead of what it represents. On the other hand, my dictionaries fail to use the word 'mother'. I see "a bringing forth; birth: offspring, child, son; descent; use-money; interest"
So none of the translations in any of the dictionaries I have would render "theotokos" as God + mother. (mother of God). It would allow "Interest of God" which is what is meant by Usury. It would allow "bringing forth God", "Child of God" (wow!). I have to say I like that last one best. But, there it is..
Becky
II: thank you.
Thank you for what?
You are truly a discerning person. Would that all Catholics adhere to your high standards of civility and intellectual discourse. (You do realize that in the end it boils down to you claiming your church is led by the Spirit while the Proddies claim they individually are led by the Spirit)
What?!?! I don't understand what you are talking about.
The Catholic Mass has not changed its Liturgy ever as far as I know. I remember being a little kid and hearing the Bible read the same as it is now. I might not have known it was the "Bible" but I heard the readings, which is the important thing. It is referred to as "The Liturgy." We were not encouraged/discouraged to read the Bible in my house, either. Our CCD classes were based on Bible stories and the Catholic Catachism. I went to Catholic HS and we finished the Bible in religious class well before I graduated.
I'm sorry you have attended "mundane" churches, I guess I have either been quite lucky or maybe I never look at any Bible reading as mundane, I don't know. I think that we have a personal responsibility to ourselves and God to get to know him through the Bible and also some of the wonderful writings we have available to us - I don't need anyone from a pulpet to remind me to do that.
Huh?
No, I said, " Yes, if it is helpful; no,if it is not." and elaborated from there. "never, for any reason" was not part of my proposition. And I ended assuming your disagreement was a complete and total victory.
"I'll continue on my merry way thank you."
This comes closer to the probe tried to draw: Is your way truly merry, and I ofered a criteria we might both accept for a means of measurement.
"OK doctor, you're fired."
That's ok, you never paid yer bill anyway.
Take care and send some gatorade to the box sometime, maybe you'd even care to visit me there sometime.
Of course this line of reasoning also allows us to state the same for your Pope and church hierarchy.
If you dish it out, don't be surprised if others respond to you in like manner.
Indeed.
Bassman, do you want to refer to your earlier posts on the meaning of "Theotokos" for Havoc?
Havoc - I apologize if I'm not understanding your point. Are you proposing that the for the past 1500 years the Orthodox have been mistaken about what they're talking about when they say "Theotokos"? Or are you defending the other poster's interpretation just to be contrarian? Or something else?
Hi Iowegian! Hope all is well with you and yours. Unfortunately, the quality of the discourse here often seems to tank late at night, so I'm off to bed. Sleep well, Christ Bless!
"Thirst after Jesus, and He will satisfy you with His love." - St. Isaac the Syrian
When Jesus told the story of the three talents, the master did not teach all the three servants everything possible to do with the money - he merely entrusted them to do something with it. He rewarded those that put themselves into the task - the one that was lazy and didn't apply himself had his taken away. God doesn't expect us to be led by the hand. He expects us to accept responsibility for our charge. Pleading ignorance is not an excuse. And people know what it means to be judged by the word.
I had a friend that got into legal trouble once. He couldn't afford a lawyer and the court would not appoint one. He had to defend himself. He was responsible for that. He did not choose to ignore that responsibility and march into the courtroom ignorant of legal etiquette or of the law, he had three weeks to prepare, and he spent it in the local library dug in - educating himself that he may stand a chance before the judge. That was over a possible short stay in jail for something he claimed he didn't do. If people aren't willing to put forth a similar effort for something far more important (their soul), they are no less responsible for what they will be judged by (the word of God). And let's not forget, Jesus said we would be judged by the message He passed on from God. He required the Apostles to pass that on. If you have a red letter edition, everything you'll be judged by is in red if you want to be hyper literal. Arguing ignorance is not a defense before a secular judge - nor is it going to be a viable defense before God.
And it isn't a matter of how much I or anyone else cares. Feelings have nothing to do with it. Jesus was clear in what he said. It is incumbent upon us to deal with it and take responsibility for what we will be judged by. If you wish to be lazy, you might as well give the talent back now; because he'll take it later and give it to someone else.
Becky
Also compare your statement above with the following statement made in the previous post.
However, to pretend that it is the only possible interpretation is fanciful.
Are those contradictory? You first say that my interpretation is not the only possible one. You then clearly state that yours is. Does that strike you as odd?
I don't have access to a Greek-to-English translation of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, but I will find out the answer.
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