The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[SoothingDave]

Ok here's the entire verse in question. It begins with "Wherefore I put thee in rememberance". I doubt what is being said is "I now remind you that you are a bishop". He is laying his hands on Timothy to remind him to stir up a gift he possesses. Why would he have to be reminded to stir up a recollection that he is a bishop? Here it is:

II Timothy 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

Steven, you are still missing the point. That being that the gift was bestowed by the laying on of hands. It is not a gift that was already there being stirred by the laying on of hands. No, it is a gift given by the laying on of hands. Examine the sentence slowly.

I put thee in rembrance - I am reminding you
that thou stir up the gift of God - to stir up the gift of God
which is in thee - the gift of God is inside you
by the putting on of my hands - the gift of God which is inside you because of my laying on of hands.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Steven, you are still missing the point. That being that the gift was bestowed by the laying on of hands. It is not a gift that was already there being stirred by the laying on of hands. No, it is a gift given by the laying on of hands. Examine the sentence slowly. I put thee in rembrance - I am reminding you that thou stir up the gift of God - to stir up the gift of God which is in thee - the gift of God is inside you by the putting on of my hands - the gift of God which is inside you because of my laying on of hands.

What point am I missing? I agree that Paul is reminding Timothy to stir up the gift inside of him by the laying on of his hands? The gift in this scripture isn't the office of a bishop. The gift could be the characteristic that makes him a good bishop.

[SoothingDave]

So you are saying that Strong's Exhaustive Concordance is incorrect when it translates "tokos" to mean "usury, money loaned at interest" or what?. Take that up with Strong's. Tell them that they are wrong and that they should quit telling people what words mean. Then take it up with Luke and Matthew. Then take it up with Jesus because he used that word to mean just that.

Are you pulling our leg? You can't really be that dense, can you? Get this: Strong's is not a dictionary. It wasn't written as one and it does not serve as one.

Is that clear? What Strong's does is tell you what the words used in the NT mean, in context. These words also have multiple meanings, often related. That is, a word can mean different things depending on context. To not recognize this fact is to be deliberately obtuse. We could provide many many examples of the same phenomenon in English or any other language.

Just because "Jesus said it" or the NT uses one particular definition of a word does not negate the existence of others. You are in grave danger of displaying the worship of the sacred text that we Catholics always accuse you of.

Do words have objective meanings or Humpty Dumpty meanings to you? If words have no objective meanings, then why do you argue with the meaning of the word "Theotokos" as "God of Usury". If meaning rests with the reader, then is it not the right of the reader to make up his meaning. You do it all the time.

The meaning rests with the people who originated the word. And that had to do with the controversies over the nature of Christ and had little to do with interest.

Do you understand at all that tokos can mean both childbirth/childbearing and interest on money? Do you understand at all why these would be served by the same word? Do you understand at all how language develops and evolves, how old words are forced into new meanings as situations change?

Have you ever heard of an "interest bearing" account? Does that ring a bell?

SD

[SoothingDave]

What point am I missing?

Have you conceded that the gift was given through the laying on of hands?

SD

[al_c]

Good morning, everyone! This will be my last readings post for a couple of weeks. I'll be in and out today, but after 4:30, y'all are on your own. I really think that a daily dose of scripture in here is good for us all, so I hope someone picks up the torch.

Good readings and meditation today ... I think we can all enjoy this one.

Please keep my wife, Dianne, and our soon-to-be-born child in your prayers tonight and through the day tomorrow. Specifically, for a healthy baby, a healthy wife, and that the induction procedure will go as planned and that she won't spend 11 hours in labor like last time. Ouch! :o(

Tuesday, February 5, 2002
St. Agatha, Virgin, Martyr (Memorial)

First Reading: Responsorial Psalm: Gospel:

2 Samuel 18:9-10, 14, 24-25, 30; 19:1-3 Psalm 86:1-6 Mark 5:21-43 Jesus Christ, Lord of all things! You see my heart, you know my desires. Possess all that I am - you alone. I am your sheep; make me worthy to overcome the devil.  -- St. Agatha

Imagine what might have gone on in the mind of the synagogue leader Jairus before he came to Jesus for help. Maybe he had struggled with thoughts like, "A man of my position can't go begging to a carpenter-turned-preacher!" And what about the hemorrhaging woman? After twelve years of sickness, what hopeless thoughts and fears did she have to overcome before pressing through the crowd and reaching out to touch Jesus' cloak?

Whatever their challenges, both Jairus and the hemorrhaging woman chose to trust Jesus by taking a bold step of faith. Because they believed in what they had not yet seen, both of them received the reward they had sought: Jairus saw his daughter raised back to life, and the woman was instantly healed and sent away with a blessing from the Son of God!

This man and woman give us two powerful examples of the kind of faith that Jesus calls each of us to develop. Haven't we all been in situations before where we were reluctant or afraid to take action because it meant taking a risk? Maybe we weren't ready to step out of our comfort zones. Maybe we worried what other people might think about us. Maybe we were afraid we might fail. What about offering to pray for healing with a sick neighbor? Would we do it if we thought that Jesus was inviting us to? He has been known to put these inspirations into people's hearts sometimes! And when we do step out and take a risk, we often find that people receive this outpouring of love gladly, if a bit nervously. Even better, we might find that God touches them through our prayer and the witness of our calm trust in Jesus.

Today, let Jesus know that you will be looking out for any inspirations he wants to give you. Tell him you want to overcome your fears and hesitations and act on them. Ask him for the grace to step out in faith as he directs. Just knock and the door will be opened--a door that leads to deeper faith and intimacy with Jesus for you and to untold blessings for others.

"Jesus, please speak to my heart today. Give me ears to hear you and recognize your direction. Help me to grow in active, confident, risk-taking faith. I trust in your goodness and mercy."

----------

Have a great day, everybody!

AC

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Have you conceded that the gift was given through the laying on of hands?

Yes I concede that the gift inside of him was given by the laying on of hands. I contend the gift inside of him is something he possesses that makes him an effective Pastor, bishop, whatever.

[SoothingDave]

If Webster's lists "philosophy" as coming from the Greek meaning literally "love of wisdom", and "theosophy" as "god of wisdom", how can you disagree with "theotokos" as meaning literally "god of usury or god of interest on money loaned", since you finally admit that "tokos" means "usury ...". ?

If you had coined the word yesterday, you could impart whatever meaning you would like to it. Seeing as how it is a word that has aready had a meaning associated with it for well near two millennia, it is quite silly to think you can redefine it now.

Maybe we should talk about basketball instead. Except when I say "basketball" I mean the sport played by white men chasing a black disc using sticks on an icy surface.

"Theotokos" means literally "God of usury, or God of interest on money loaned" or by extension "God of moneylenders or moneychangers" -- and which one of those three meanings a person chooses depends on the context?

Yeah, either that or the established definition, "bearer of God."

Thank you for your philosophy. .

Havoc? Is that you?

SD

[SoothingDave]

Yes I concede that the gift inside of him was given by the laying on of hands. I contend the gift inside of him is something he possesses that makes him an effective Pastor, bishop, whatever.

OK, my mistake. I thought you were contesting that. I guess we are back to simply disagreeing about wheter the giving of the gift is also a bestowing of a role or office in the Church.

SD

[IMRight]

My wife is a natural childbirth educator and she just said that the study of childbirth is called "tocology". I thought that was interesting, so from a medical online text I find:

"Tocology The science of childbirth, is one of the words in this theme. Tokos, the root of the word, is Greek for childbirth but obstetrics is commonly used instead."

Bet all those OB/GYN doctors out there will be shocked to find that they have been moneylenders all along.

[trad_anglican]

Ok here's the entire verse in question. It begins with "Wherefore I put thee in rememberance". I doubt what is being said is "I now remind you that you are a bishop". He is laying his hands on Timothy to remind him to stir up a gift he possesses. Why would he have to be reminded to stir up a recollection that he is a bishop?

Let's set aside for the moment whether Paul is referring to an ordination or to something else. Paul is not laying his hands on Timothy in this letter. He is speaking of an event that has already happened - that's the imparting of the gift through the laying on of hands. Paul is exhorting Timothy to stir up that gift.

My point is that the clear meaning of this verse is that the gift was imparted through the laying on of hands. Whether the gift was Holy Orders or something else, the impartation of a spiritual gift (grace) through an outward sign (laying on of hands) is scriptural.

[malakhi]

In what way do Baptists encounter the Presence of the Living God?

Thru faith in Jesus Christ, resulting in a changed life, and that done thru the power of Jesus Christ, not ourselfs, I've had Christ change things in me that only a true God could change, I really tried for years and could not over come some things in my life, untill I gave up (pride and all, and that ain't easy bud) and turned them over to Christ and He made the change. Thats why I love Him, He became real to me when I could not help myself and he did. Hes the best friend I ever had. :)

Thanks, BigMack. I hope you don't mind another question or two! If I can make my earlier question a little more specific... When you pray, to whom do you direct your prayer? Do you just 'talk with God'? And when you do so, do you simply have faith that He hears you, or do you (on occasion) experience God's Presence?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

My point is that the clear meaning of this verse is that the gift was imparted through the laying on of hands. Whether the gift was Holy Orders or something else, the impartation of a spiritual gift (grace) through an outward sign (laying on of hands) is scriptural.

Gee. I thought that was my point. All except for the Holy Orders.

[IMRight]

He probably also will be unwilling to accept the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon 's word on the subject.

[trad_anglican]

This verse only seems to mean that the Holy spirit was given to Timothy and that he was to stir it up, not neglect it, as everyone who receives it should.

That is one interpretation. I don't agree with it. I believe that the laying on of hands that Paul is talking to Timothy about was his ordination. I believe that the laying on of hands in Acts is a description of what we now call Confirmation, which is the sacrament in which a baptized person who had been properly instructed in the Faith, receives the seven fold gifts of the Holy Spirit.

[IMRight]

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words isn't going to help him either.

Oh, and Dave. Havoc has been playing pretty nice lately. We need to cut him some slack. Woodkirk seems to be in a "class" by himself (though perhaps "class" is not the right word - I'll go check Strong's).

[trad_anglican]

Gee. I thought that was my point.

I'm sorry. I didn't understand that from your earlier posts.

[SoothingDave]

Oh, and Dave. Havoc has been playing pretty nice lately. We need to cut him some slack. Woodkirk seems to be in a "class" by himself (though perhaps "class" is not the right word - I'll go check Strong's).

I suppose. Even Havoc isn't going to try to redefine a well known word, so this guy is in a whole different class. I just thought the parting shot about "philosophy" was very, what's the word?, Havocian.

SD

[Dustbunny]

Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a retch like me. I once was lost but now am found was blind but now I see.

Only words that ever run through my mind when Christianity is mentioned.

[malakhi]

Please keep my wife, Dianne, and our soon-to-be-born child in your prayers tonight and through the day tomorrow. Specifically, for a healthy baby, a healthy wife, and that the induction procedure will go as planned

Will do, al! May God bless you and your family.

[malakhi]

Hi Dustbunny, welcome to The Neverending Story! Feel free to speak up anytime.