Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Whoa. Slow down. Nobody said anything about God keeping the Devil from tempting Mary. Mary was free from Original Sin but not protected from temptation. Just like Adam and Eve were free from OS, but open to the Devil's temptation. One of these days you might actually understand this Catholicism you always rail against.
If we say that Mary needed special assistance from God to remain sinless you rip us for saying God violated the devil's "rights" and turned Mary into a slave.
Nobody needed special assistance in the old days to live a righteous life - they just needed to obey God. The same is true today, with the caviat now of accepting Christ rather than heeding the old sacrificial system. Ya'll act like there was no such thing as a righteous person before Jesus came along. You can't really be that dumb.
Angelo, call your office.
Havoc, why this Jesus thing again if it was so easy to be righteous before? Isn't it a big proof text of your side that "all men have fallen short" to prove that Mary couldn't have been without sin? Now you say that righteousness was obtainable under the old system.
SD
This is correct.
Yep, sure do. And apart from Giving birth, Mary has not one whit to do with salvation. Zero. Zilch. Zip. Nada.. She is not diety, not the creator of a God, not a 'Co' anything.blahblahblahblah you can too.
Havoc you stated that Vatican II gave Mary ownership of the graces of Christ. I pointed to the section quoted and highlighted the exact point where the gains are attributed to Christ only, and Mary is termed the dispenser of the graces. Now, do you have something from the Vatican backing up what you said, or will you retract it? Or will you just give me another lecture?
SD
Insofar as Jesus IS the Word made flesh. Mary WAS the first person to hear the Word of God (along with Joseph & a mixture of farm animals - depending on which creche' you have).
Warning! This post is an attempt at humor - this is only an attempt at humor. Had this been a real post... you would have been instructed.......
I have to go ride a horse for a while, thanks for the discussion today, I'm in a lot better mood now then when I started this morning, Big Mack will thank you too:)
Becky
He meant it. Take the blinders off.
Typical. And is all I see lately is the charge of "Anti-catholic," "Everyone is so mean to us poor catholic's," blah, blah, blah. LOOK AT THE WAY YOU ARE ANSWERING. Why should we like you when you won't even answer a question let alone say it civilly.
What happened to the people who ate meat on Fri. when it was a sin?
If they were cuplable for the sin of disobedience then God would have used it as a factor when they were judged. (I'm not in the position to say they are in hell, but it is a serious sin to willfully disobey the Church.)
How can it be fair to change rules in mid-stream?
You misunderstand the "rule" which was broken. The sin is disobedience. Before Vatican II disobeying the church was a sin. After, disobeying the church is still a sin. Nothing's changed.
I do hope you don't think we are sending people to hell who forgot it was Friday or who honestly could not follow the Church law?
Why do you not consider it "works" when it is a made up rule by the church, that can be found no where in God's word, but will send you to hell?
Jesus does say to listen to the Church in Scripture. Now why should our obedience effect our salvation? I don't know but that seems tob e the way God put things together. I know you believe otherwise, but I believe that if I fall into grave sin I will go to hell. After all it is the "doers" of the Law who are rewarded.
"sigh" As far as the 10 commandments, those are God's laws. They serve a purpose. They show us our sins. Fasting from meat on Fri. shows us nothing.
Au contraire Abstaining from meat is a way to remember the supreme sacrifice Jesus made for us. it is not an empty gesture, or at least should not be one.
I keep the 10 because God said if you love me you will keep my commandments. I do them because I love him and feel grateful to him for saving me, NOT TO GET SAVED.
Didn't I get hell for saying the same thing up above? That you don't feel that how you obey the commandments has anything to do with your salvation? (OK. I apologize because I know a good Christian tries to adhere to them, but you have to admit you don't think they have anything to do with salvation.)
SD
Bass, read Havoc's banalities above and see it as witness to the truth of what I said in Post 2102.
So many strawmen, so little time.
Pray for John Paul II
The fullfillment of the Commandments is Obedience to God. If it's work for you to be obedient, then you can call it work. If you want to play word games, then no, it isn't. Obedience is required for fullfillment of promise. If you can't be obedient, you have no promise. Simple as that. But, then, you need the word games to confuse terminology in order to make the statements harder to follow.
Thank you for agreeing with me. More or less. Obedience is required for fulfillment of promise. And all we Catholics are doing is obeying the authority we believe God left for us to obey. No works involved.
SD
"None Of Your Business". A less polite way of saying "don't worry about our marital bliss, but it isn't a topic for this board"
We want you to affirm it because it is true and because it will be one instance in which we can agree....
But what about my second question: Why is it not enough for you...(etc)?
Because as we have found here, many folks are very confused with their Christology and use the opportunity to deny Mary her role as theotokos to display their confusion. we hear talk of Mary birthing only "the human half" of Jesus and such. Just saying "Jesus is God" is not sufficient. One must at least also say "and He always was God, even when in the womb." This logically implies theotokos.
SD
We confess that we are given a full measure of sanctifying, or saving, grace at Baptism. By our actions we may literally "fall out of grace," that is, lose our grace. Partially, drip by drip, or all at once with major bad actions. This is not because God failed, but rather our own refusal of the grace of God. This grace is restored through repentence and forgiveness and this grace is strengthened by participating in the sacraments. We will need to be "full" of grace in order to stand before the Lord's throne. (Being full of grace leaves no room for sin.)
SD
Scripture please? I recall a passage where Jesus says "take it to the Church" and if the person still won't listen "treat him like a tax collector." Jesus doesn't say "find a church more suitable to your taste."
I know I recently had a question about topic that I did not realize at the time was a sore spot between the Sunday School teacher and our preacher. I asked the question to them both together, and well, all h--l broke loose. The Sunday School Teacher left the church and took half the people with him. It was a very crushing experience, but I had to agree with the answer that the preacher gave, he backed it up with scripture. Any way, I believe the pastor is in authority of his church under Christ.
That is certainly traumatic. I am sorry for any pain this may have caused you.
SD
Since you have the "seal of God" do you no longer sin?
I'd be interested in your answer to this question (if you've already answered, kindly point me in the right direction).
Gladly
2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Jn 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
2 Cor 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eastons Bible Dictionary
"ERNEST" Originally it meant no more than a pledge; but in common usage it came to denote that particular kind of pledge which is a part of the full price of an article paid in advance; and as it is joined with the figure of a seal when applied to the Spirit, it seems to be used by Paul in this specific sense." The Spirit's gracious presence and working in believers is a foretaste to them of the blessedness of heaven. God is graciously pleased to give not only pledges but foretastes of future blessedness.
This seal means that our salvation has already been paid for in advance, a non-refundable deposit.
1 Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Sin is only attributed to us if it is willful, and a true Christian does not willfully sin, so if he does what is called a sin, it is not attributed to him as a sin, since it wasn't willful, and the blood of Christ had already paid for it.
I am grateful to be able to point this out to you, what a relief to know we are saved, and the only way we could loose that salvation, would be to willfully go about purposely to rid our selves of that promise, and with God’s Spirit in us who would ever do that?
Maybe you should explain to me what he meant instead of becoming the "spin-hack" that you are.
Thank you Reggie, that's one post I don't have to answer now.(^g^)
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