Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
How do you know? John 21:25.
No, I do quite well 'get it.' The people of the colonies didn't feel they needed to pay for everything twice - once for themselves and once for another group that didn't get the idea that this is america. Catholics were not the majority, they were the minority. Catholics didn't like the program and went to do their own thing. The people of this country owed nothing to Catholicism in way of special treatment. America provided schools and Catholicism decided not to take part in them. That doesn't mean it's owed to Catholicism to build a system for them, then a system for muslims, then one for Jews, etc. This is the melting pot. We came together to be together - not to be divided. We had a common system that did it's best for the majority. If the minority wants to do it's own thing, opinion was and is, the minority foots the bill. We're not reinventing the wheel for everyone that has a problem with the one we have! And as a Christian I have no problem with the notion of a child of mine being in a public school. They have to learn what the world is like sometime. Denying that experience is damaging.
Why on earth should their tax dollars go to a school which is goiing to poision their childrens' minds?
Why, I thought we were all Christians together.. that we all agreed on the core essentials... But, I guess readings from the Bible and teaching children who Jesus was is just a bit much for a Catholic to be poisoned with, eh?
What to you is "the dirt basics" is indoctrination 101 to us. Understand?
Oh, I see. So teaching that Jesus died for our sins, was raised up on the third day and lives in each of us as Christians - teaching that and required obedience to him is indoctrination. Glad to hear that from you. Cause those are the dirt basics.
(I guess I should belabor the point, given the audience here, an do the old "role reversal." What if America were mainly founded by Catholics and Orthodox. And they developed public schools which taught about the authority of the Church and had statues of Mary and said the "Abbreviated" version of the Our Father every day. Would you feel like you had to have your kids in a different kind of environment, lest they pick up some irrational Romanism?)
Your problem is that that sort of crap was not being taught on the other side of things. You also have the problem of the example of Mormonism that did the same thing as Catholicism. Ya'll weren't persecuted out of the schools, the RCC made it's choice not to be a part of the educational system. If similar things were being taught, you'd have a point. They weren't. Moreover, if the Catholic history were taken into account, there would have been no such thing as 'other schools' Catholic rule was dominant and opressive. And if Catholicism had ruled a nation of this size, there would have been no freedom of religion in America any more then there was in Europe. That can be said because we know that was the practice - we have a track record to judge against.
We are in complete agreement if you mean the first, but you must agree that there are plenty of Protestants who teach the second (i.e. that "faith alone" refers to faith by itself).
I forgot that Heaven is on GMT.
My appologies! I'm trying to get some work done in between replies. I'll let you educate me as penance.
The problem isn't what's taught at the schools Angelo, it is with what parents don't take responsibility for. It's what parents don't do - and that's see to it their children are raised right nowdays. The paycheck is more important than the children today. I went to public schools and turned out fine. I wasn't indoctrinated in evolution, the truth was in me even then. And because I believed it, professed it and obeyed the Lord, I turned out just fine. And I learned what the enemy was all about at the same time. I resented my Dad for a long time for 'protecting' me by disallowing me to participate in activities with my friends. It is now work for me to socialize - work; because I didn't learn it as a kid. No social life meant no dating. And I was not allowed to work till I left school either. Entering the world was a massive shock to me. Massive. It took me a long time to get a handle on it because I was not fully prepared for it. And you know what I learned? You can protect someone almost to death.
However my NIV cautions me on the verse:
1 John 5:8 the [Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy
Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek
manuscript before the sixteenth century)] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in
agreement.
I believe what is being said here is that what you are quoting from the King James did not appear until the 16th century.
Tehillim (Psalm) 119:105 Your Word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.
XeniaSt
Gladly! If my dog fetches the morning paper (I don't have one... go with me here), it is merely an obedient servant/creature and has "earned" nothing. If my son (I have two, the oldest 18 mo.) does the same work... I as a father view it in an entirely different fashion since he does it out of love for his father. There is NO good deed, apart from Christ, that has ANY merit in an eternal sense.
That's probably about as close to agreement we will get. BTW, how much obedience is necessary, in your view, to obtain salvation? Total perfection (sinlessness)? And to what exactly must you be obedient to? I think the answers that people give to these questions is very telling.
Remember that the first and last times that faith is mentioned by Paul in Romans, he talks about his mission being to bring about "the obedience of Faith". So any doctrine of salvation that pits Faith in Christ against obedience starts the race with both feet in a bucket. I would imagine that Christ measures our obedience against our maturity as Christians - using my example above... If my son at 18 YRS still brings me the paper (and that is the limit of his obedient love), he is falling short. The Father expects more from us as we recieve more from him... It is still not the work that accomplishes the salvation, but they are inexplicably bound up.
Jesus didn't light a candle and hide it. He said the way was narrow and long and few would enter in. That means it isn't easy to see or understand else it would be wide and short and a Lot of people would make it. OOPS. 1 Corinthians 1 God chose the little things to counfound the wisdom of the wise. Those who know God's word, spread his message. It isn't a popular one. And few who hear it will heed it. God's word is very plain. It's just that you have to have Him and it within you. And most don't and have no idea what that means. They have zero idea of the power of God and the grace of God because they are too busy chasing their own ideas of power and righteousness.
People are so deluded with themselves that they would rather believe a psychic than a man of God. The psychic will tickle their ears with revelations from demons. They don't realize it's the 'adopt a demon' program. submit and you too can have critters runnin round your house. Spiritual ignorance is displayed here and in the secular world daily. It will be the ruin of many souls. The word warns - people would rather hear the floral good feeling stuff. God isn't about feelings, he's about reality and spirit.
The Word of God is a light to the world; but, many will not show it. And most don't want to look at it. They have batteries and a bulb and think they know something.
LOL That's OK, (I even corrected your spelling error to make you look better as a sign of goodwill :-). Here's the theological dictionary's definition of "sola Scriptura":
The teaching that the Scriptures contain all that is necessary for salvation and proper living before God.
Now, it is my personal opinion, based on experience, that the real problem that RC's have with the teaching is that is doesn't include their church anywhere in the sentence. LOL
You misinterpret my answer. I never said Catholics were perfect.
I'm sorry, I thought you said the catholic church was perfect?
Can I answer this one for ya Peg? Same answer. The Book of Acts.
Wrong answer. I asked when the first post Apostolic Council was held in your Church.
Oh sorry again. I assume right after the last apostle died all my christian brothers and sisters continued to meet daily. Been goin on for a couple thousand years now.
The flesh is of no avail for the spirit is what lasts and goes on. The body must die as it is designed to. Thus Jesus and the Apostles tell us to overcome the flesh (the carnal - the things we can touch and feel) and put your focus on the spiritual (the everlasting). The Body of Christ is spiritual. Scripture does help interpret scripture; but, one has to apply spiritual to spiritual, carnal to carnal, etc. Your contorted explanation sets the scriptures on their ear by applying the carnal to a spiritual issue. It's not amazing that you say it - it's amazing that you can't see it. This is why one needs the spirit of God. These things require him to understand. Carnal understanding cannot penetrate them. The small things confound the wise.
Any "binding" that you put in there (works/obedience with salvation) makes in not a free gift, and therefore not by grace through faith. When you get Christmas presents, how would you feel if there was a note inside each one that said: "You only get to keep it if you do _____________" ? That's not a free gift, that is, it would not be true grace.
The other problem is denominationalism. There are so many different interpretations of Scripture and no guidance under the common Bible Christian understanding of this theology. Some even lay the responsibility of determining the Cannon on each individual believer and most claim that the individual works out Biblical interpretation through Faith and prayer (a worthy goal). But you've seen these threads...The Baptists disagree with the Presbyterians (on infant Baptism say...) then they gang up on a Pentecostal on fruits of the Spirit etc... Sola Scriptura - by the definition you give - still leaves holes (or is it wholes?) in the fabric of the argument.
So venerating anything that isn't God is an error?
Given what is involved in your actual practices of "veneration", IMHO yes.
I have a better, still unanswered question. If Jesus dwells in each Christian. And given he was not speaking literally in the last supper; why would it be necessary for him to be present in the Bread and wine for people to experience him when it's only meant for true Christians and True Christians experience him every living moment within them? (Mr Trebek, music please).
On the contrary! It is the adopted sonship that is the free gift. The obedience is our response to that free gift. My obedience (what little there could possible be) is worthless outside of being Christ's adopted brother, but IS of value when performed by a member of His family. I suspect that this is the answer to the dilema some have reconciling James 2 with Paul's doctrine of Faith.
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