The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[Pelayo]

Vehicle and building design, Calligraphy, I'd say anything that doesn't lend itself to worship. If it will be paid undue respect, it is a no-no.

Hay Havoc how about answering my question now? Since you can't make images of people shouldn't photos, and tv, and films all be band?

[RobbyS]

I take you just skim over Luke. That does fit your Christology, which is skim-milk.

[OLD REGGIE]

1 Corinthians 7:

1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote. It is well for a man not to touch a woman.

2 But because of the temptation to immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.

4 For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does.

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That darned Paul. He always was a troublemaker.

[SoothingDave]

"Took unto him his wife" is the KJV. This refers to marriage, not sex.

Can't ya see how idiotic this sounds?

No. Joseph was engaged to Mary. She turns up pregnant. An angel tells Joseph not to worry, she's not a slut, she's carrying the Son of God. The angel says go ahead and marry her. So he does. "They came together" means they were joined in matrimony and she went to live in his house. It means nothing about sex.

SD

[JHavard]

Does that mean if an old fart couple gets married and he's impotent that it doesn't count?

I'm sure that Joseph wasn't an old fart, although if it helps your point go ahead, although I wouldn't want to be around you when you're both quickened,... him raising seven kids and all, I don’t think you would want to say that to his face> :-)

[SoothingDave]

The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.

4 For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does.

I'm confused. Is this a mandate to have sex or else a marriage isn't valid? Does this speak to normal Christian marriages? Does it preclude a couple doing without sex, by mutual agreement? Wouldn't Paul have found that even better?

SD

[Pelayo]

That should be banned, not band *stuped spellchecker*

[SoothingDave]

Does that mean if an old fart couple gets married and he's impotent that it doesn't count?

I'm sure that Joseph wasn't an old fart, although if it helps your point go ahead, although I wouldn't want to be around you when you're both quickened,... him raising seven kids and all, I don’t think you would want to say that to his face> :-)

Do try to answer the quesiton. IT seems like you were saying that if no sex occurs it is not a marriage. I gave a possible counterexample, not even mentioning Mary and Joseph. Well? Where is the Scripture which says "if two people get married, they must have sex"

SD

[RobbyS]

Well, the truth has been voted up and voted down. Jesus was, after all, executed by the high and mighty who wished to get rid of a popular leader.

[Pelayo]

AHHHHHH Stupid*

[SoothingDave]

Since you guys are all around maybe you can answer my other question of the day. Was Jesus not God or did Mary not give birth to Jesus? Or is there some other logical flaw?

SD

[RobbyS]

Was Paul talking about the relationship between Joseph and Mary? I can't recall he ever said a word about either. In short, this is irrelevant

[OLD REGGIE]

Let me correct myself before I am picked up on it. No sooner than I had posted 1 Corinthians 7:1-4 I realized it was too easy, too pat. Alas, I had made the same mistake I accuse my RC friends of making. I posted something incomplete and totally out of context.

1 Corinthians 7:6

6 I say this by way of concession, not of command.

This completely invalidates 1 Corinthians 7: as an argument to disprove Perpetual Virginity. There are plenty more, however. Mea Culpa.

[JohnnyM]

Why is it vital for Mary to be a virgin her whole life?? What would it count against her if she had other kids??

Now, I see more Scriptural evidence for her losing her virgnity rather than keeping it. The strongest evidence for her losing her virginity is the whole issues of brothers and sisters being used and the marriage traditions of Jews. The strongest evidence for her not having kids was Jesus' statement to John on the Cross. Now there is signifigance for Mary being a virgin when she gave birth, but I dont see why the Catholics are so adamant about her remaining a virgin.

JM

[JHavard]

So she died, then stuck her arm out of the grave and gave us this bit of wisdom huh?

SD
This is nonsensical. Don't you think a woman possibly dying in childbirth couldn't decide what she wanted as an epitaph? It doesn't mean she had to enscribe it herself.

Talk about nonsensical, it is shear stupidity to think a person would write such a thing, was she saying she hated the child for causing her death, Where was the husband? why didn't he write, here lies my wife who died giving birth to our firstborn? Or here is my beloved sister who.......
This is getting so stupid answering questions like this, and Havoc getting a rectal cavity search because he made a personal decision to get out of the art field, I'm leaving before your gibberish starts to make sense, and that would mean I had waited too long. Later,.......

[JohnnyM]

I can see the term first born being used in cases where there were no other children born. It's not a stretch, but is by no means evidence that she remained a virgin.

JM

[OLD REGGIE]

It doesn't matter what the person in this situation thinks. The brothers have an obligation under the Law to care for their mother. If you have evidence from scripture that the brothers didn't believe in God, please present it.
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John 7:

1 After this Jesus went about in Galilee; he would not go about in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill him.

2 Now the Jews' feast of Tabernacles was at hand.

3 So his brothers said to him, "Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples may see the works you are doing.

4 For no man works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world."

5 For even his brothers did not believe in him. ===========================================

[Havoc]

Jerome's reply to Helvidius the the best answer to you, but the simply reply is that the teaching of the Church is the true interpretation of Scripture and that Helvidius' interpretation was wrong, in part because in a century tainted by Ariansm it casts doubt on the Virgin birth, or at least its significance. For if his mother had other children, then the birth narratives can be taken only as meaning that he was a great man or a prophet, but not the son of God, and Mary was in no sense Theotokos.

He's full of it. If Mary was a virgin to the time that Jesus was concieved, that is all that was necessary. After his birth, it matters not a lick.

[SoothingDave]

Why is it vital for Mary to be a virgin her whole life?? What would it count against her if she had other kids??

Now, I see more Scriptural evidence for her losing her virgnity rather than keeping it. The strongest evidence for her losing her virginity is the whole issues of brothers and sisters being used and the marriage traditions of Jews. The strongest evidence for her not having kids was Jesus' statement to John on the Cross. Now there is signifigance for Mary being a virgin when she gave birth, but I dont see why the Catholics are so adamant about her remaining a virgin.

Thank you for the balance and for understanding the other side.

We are adamant about Mary remaining a virgin because it is true. The guys on the other side are absolutely right that it is a pivitol point. It demonstrates how one can take passages from the Bible and reach the wrong conclusion. Certainly one who knew nothing about Semitic languages or culture would read about "brothers" of Jesus and leap to the "obvious" conclusion. Same with Matt 1:25.

This point illustrates the need to have a touchstone, a guide, for understanding Scripture as it has always been understood. It is too easy to go off the wrong track.

Now why is it important for Mary to not have other kids? I think it speaks, as I said, to the miracle of the virgin birth. Certainly one woman, dedicated as a virgn who has a kid because of a miracle sits better with me than a woman with 6 or 8 kids claiming one of them is the son of God.

Also, Joseph and Mary were entrusted with the most precious gift imaginable. I could see where if I were told to father God's own Son I wouldn't be real keen to have more kids. They might be distractions, or might get treated unfairly in comparision.

As a man I think it would be fairly intimidating to even think that I could use the very womb in which my God gestated as a source of personal pleasure.

Lastly, as I just hinted, can you imagine how horrible it would be to grow up as the normal human sibling of the Son of God, God in the Flesh, Jesus? I don't see how our God, slow to anger and rich in kindness would subject any soul to such a thing. Can you imagine? "Why can't you be more like your brother?" "Your brother always got good grades in school!" etc.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Can you at all imagine that the Catholic position is plausible? That Mary was a consecrated virgin and Joseph took her as his wife not for sex, but for protection? That the references to "brothers" and "sisters" might be ambiguous given the language and culture? Is it possible?
------------------------------------------------------------ It is so possible that it took hundreds of years to develop this "truth".