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To: JohnnyM
Why is it vital for Mary to be a virgin her whole life?? What would it count against her if she had other kids??

Now, I see more Scriptural evidence for her losing her virgnity rather than keeping it. The strongest evidence for her losing her virginity is the whole issues of brothers and sisters being used and the marriage traditions of Jews. The strongest evidence for her not having kids was Jesus' statement to John on the Cross. Now there is signifigance for Mary being a virgin when she gave birth, but I dont see why the Catholics are so adamant about her remaining a virgin.

Thank you for the balance and for understanding the other side.

We are adamant about Mary remaining a virgin because it is true. The guys on the other side are absolutely right that it is a pivitol point. It demonstrates how one can take passages from the Bible and reach the wrong conclusion. Certainly one who knew nothing about Semitic languages or culture would read about "brothers" of Jesus and leap to the "obvious" conclusion. Same with Matt 1:25.

This point illustrates the need to have a touchstone, a guide, for understanding Scripture as it has always been understood. It is too easy to go off the wrong track.

Now why is it important for Mary to not have other kids? I think it speaks, as I said, to the miracle of the virgin birth. Certainly one woman, dedicated as a virgn who has a kid because of a miracle sits better with me than a woman with 6 or 8 kids claiming one of them is the son of God.

Also, Joseph and Mary were entrusted with the most precious gift imaginable. I could see where if I were told to father God's own Son I wouldn't be real keen to have more kids. They might be distractions, or might get treated unfairly in comparision.

As a man I think it would be fairly intimidating to even think that I could use the very womb in which my God gestated as a source of personal pleasure.

Lastly, as I just hinted, can you imagine how horrible it would be to grow up as the normal human sibling of the Son of God, God in the Flesh, Jesus? I don't see how our God, slow to anger and rich in kindness would subject any soul to such a thing. Can you imagine? "Why can't you be more like your brother?" "Your brother always got good grades in school!" etc.

SD

1,359 posted on 10/19/2001 2:16:44 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
SD your points are simply rationalizing, but they don't give any Spiritual signifigance to her remaining a virgin. There is Spiritual signifigance to her being a virgin when she gives birth to Jesus, but I have yet to see it clearly explained why she should remain one. Siting sibling rivalry and denoucing sex as a dirty act are not valid arguments for the case.

JM
1,361 posted on 10/19/2001 2:25:08 PM PDT by JohnnyM
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To: SoothingDave
Now why is it important for Mary to not have other kids? I think it speaks, as I said, to the miracle of the virgin birth. Certainly one woman, dedicated as a virgn who has a kid because of a miracle sits better with me than a woman with 6 or 8 kids claiming one of them is the son of God.

the Proto-Gospel of St. James, which was known to Origen and was probably composed before his time, is evidence that Our Lady was venerated quite early on. This this practice grew is suggested by the fact that her role increases from the earliest to the latest gospels. But the opposition we see to the concept of perpetual virginity is really just anti-Catholicism: the Protestant exaultation of marriage in opposition to monasticism; their fanatical opposition to the medieval cult of Mary. That Jesus himself never married --was in fact a monk like Anthony or a friar like Francis, anyway--is something they never face up to.

1,372 posted on 10/19/2001 3:17:59 PM PDT by RobbyS
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To: SoothingDave
This point illustrates the need to have a touchstone, a guide, for understanding Scripture as it has always been understood. It is too easy to go off the wrong track.

If your catholic church (noun) is guiding you to take this position, its not doin' ya any favors.

1,384 posted on 10/19/2001 4:05:46 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: SoothingDave
Certainly one woman, dedicated as a virgn who has a kid because of a miracle sits better with me than a woman with 6 or 8 kids claiming one of them is the son of God.

But it doesn't really matter because He was God. So whether he had brothers and sisters is irrelevant (except when you're trying to fight Arianism and you're losing). The fact that He was God is hard to believe. Not that He might have brothers and sisters. You Catholics have been so careful to stress Jesus' humanity (and I think rightly so). Why not stress his humanity here? Jesus Christ was human. Crowd: How human was he? Johnny: He was sooo human, He had brothers and sisters.

In sum on this point, the primary miracle is the Incarnation (on that I think we agree). After that, anything is easy to believe.

I could see where if I were told to father God's own Son I wouldn't be real keen to have more kids.

This sounds like a personal preference you are forcing onto Mary and Joseph. You say that we force our personal preferences onto Joseph when we claim that if he was gonna get married he wanted to have sex. You are forcing your personal preferences upon them here. I would think that Jesus was a pretty good kid and having a kid like that might encourage a parent to have another. Course, when the first one's good, you know the next one is gonna be trouble. Can you imagine the comparisons? "Why can't you be more like Jesus?" And the kids wandering around with the WWJD bracelets and you're just Jesus' brother (kidding on the last bit of course).

As a man I think it would be fairly intimidating to even think that I could use the very womb in which my God gestated as a source of personal pleasure.

This is just another personal preference. I do not know of any precedence by which wombs are declared sacred spots. I think that Catholics see Mary as deserving of some special honor on her merit. And Proddies see her as deserving of the same honor as all who accept the will of God for their lives. No doubt her task was more important than millions others put together, but all any of us can do is respond to God's will.

And I see you have echoed my point on sibling rivalries.

1,569 posted on 10/20/2001 1:09:47 PM PDT by the808bass
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