Can't use Pledge of Allegiance to comply with law (Pledge Banned in Madison, WI Schools)

Wisconsin State Journal ^ | 10/8/01 | Doug Erickson Education reporter

[Jean S]

Can't use Pledge of Allegiance to comply with law, schools told

The Madison School Board barred schools on Monday from using the Pledge of Allegiance as a way to comply with a new state law that requires a daily patriotism dose.

Instead, schools can use only the national anthem - and then only instrumental versions of it. No words.

The 3-2 board vote came after several parents and teachers complained that the pledge, which contains the line "one nation, under God," is a religious oath that doesn't belong in public schools. Others criticized the pledge for promoting nationalism and militarism.

Board President Calvin Williams, who voted with the majority, said the board's action is the "least intrusive and least offensive" way to comply with the law.

"We've chosen a reasonable compromise that preserves freedom of expression on both ends of the spectrum and doesn't trample on anyone's rights," he said.

The law, which took effect Sept. 1, requires schools to offer the pledge or anthem daily in grades 1 to 12. Madison implemented the law last week, with Superintendent Art Rainwater leaving it up to each school to decide whether the pledge or anthem would be offered and in what format.

The heaviest criticism has been aimed at those elementary schools where the pledge is being read over the public address system. Although the law says students cannot be forced to participate, critics said children have little choice but to listen to it when it's broadcast throughout the school.

"What we're doing here is opening up a very slippery slope," said Sally Franz, an educational assistant at Cherokee Middle School and one of six people who criticized the law Monday. "Indoctrination leads to totalitarianism, and we're approaching that moment."

Board member Bill Keys' motion instructs schools to broadcast an instrumental version of the anthem at a time deemed appropriate by administrators. This option will allow dissenting students to opt out less conspicuously, reducing the chances for harassment, he said.

Williams and Carol Carstensen agreed with Keys. Carstensen said the motion in no way prohibits the teaching of the pledge for educational reasons or the singing of the anthem in music class. And students can say the pledge on their own during the school day, she said.

Ruth Robarts and Shwaw Vang opposed the motion, with both saying it doesn't go far enough to protect the rights of dissenters. "It's a step in the right direction, but it doesn't remove the coerciveness of the classroom situation," Robarts said. She wanted the anthem to be offered before or after classes.

Ray Allen and Juan Jose Lopez were absent. Reached later, Lopez said he opposes the motion.

"I would not have voted to ban the Pledge of Allegiance," he said. "We live in the United States of America, and people should be given the choice."

[TRY ONE]

Since our money has "In God We Trust" I think the "least intrusive and least offensive" way to handle that would be for the Cheese Heads to, say, turn all their money over to moi!

[sphinx]

Interesting point. Maybe we could smuggle the appropriate passages from Darwin into the curriculum. Do you know if the courts have ever objected to quoting Darwin specifically?

[MozartLover]

Not all Cheese Heads!! Please!! We're not ALL nuts!!!! :(

[brewcrew]

Somebody said UW lost to Indiana Saturday?

Not just lost. Got creamed. Ouch.

[SurferDoc]

Freep their butts, bigtime.

[babyfreep]

The 3-2 board vote came after several parents and teachers complained that the pledge, which contains the line "one nation, under God," is a religious oath that doesn't belong in public schools.

What I want to know is how many of these "parents and teachers" can honestly say they were permanently scarred by reciting or hearing the PoA as a child? Something messed them up, but it sure wasn't our Pledge. Why did they wait all these years to come out with this?
I remember in my first grade class (early 60's), there was a kid who was a Jehovah's Witness. Our teacher explained to us that the boy would not say the Pledge with us, but he would stand with us. Even as first graders, we understood and we were all OK with it. His parents didn't complain that none of us should say it, just because he couldn't.

Others criticized the pledge for promoting nationalism and militarism.

What's wrong with that???? Isn't that part of Patriotism???

This kind of news makes me ill at my stomach. Big Texas FReep goes all the way to Wisconsin.

[TLBSHOW]

big bump from TLBSHOW ATTACK THE ATTACK DOGS

[brewcrew]

You have built your "moral high ground" in no man's land.

Outstanding! Way to FReep 'em!

[Congressman Billybob]

No one is FORCED to say the Pledge of Allegiance. A generation ago, in the Gobitis case involving Jehovah's Witnesses from West Virginia, the Supreme Court tuled that the Pledge cannot be mandatory on those whose religion forbids them to pledge to any other entity than their God. That decision is still good law.

As for why you call the Pledge "socialist," is completely beyond me. The Constitution is quite specific that mo one's "life or property" can be taken away without "due process of law." The government can buy our property, as it often does for highways, etc., but it cannot simply "take" our property. Taking private property is a central tenet of all scoialistic systems. Since that is forbidden here by our "supreme law," your comment is incomprehensible.

The (More er Less) Honorable Billybob,
cyberCongressman from Western Carolina

Click here for Billybob's latest, "Bush is DEAD Wrong." The next, "The ONE Commandment," will be posted after al Qua'da and Taliban are gone, or in about 48 hours.

Click here and go to "ALCU Watch" for "The Law of War," a detailed legal discussion of how the US declares war, both historically and in this instance.

[LouD]

Not so fast, Kryptonite - Marquette banned a flag ceremony a couple of weeks ago because it might be offensive to foreign students.

[TLBSHOW]

Keep Freeping this "Communist

BUMP

[TLBSHOW]

We stand in their faces and say no. They need a protest from FReepers there. You know the signs the

media

[jgrubbs]

Madison County Board of Education 2001

	Name	Address	Home Phone
	Ray Allen, Clerk	26 Sumter Court (53705)	829-2772
	Carol J. Carstensen	720 Orton Court (53703)	255-5931
	Bill Keys	2 North Rock Road (53705)	238-8575
	Juan José López, Treasurer	2532 Fairfield Place (53704)	242-5473
	Ruth Robarts, Vice President	3726 Gregory Street (53711)	238-2273
	Shwaw Vang	5108 Milwaukee Street (53714)	240-9350
	Calvin J. Williams, President	3905 Paunack Ave. (53711)	233-1400

Members of the Board of Education may be reached by writing the following address:
Madison Metropolitan School District
545 West Dayton Street
Madison, WI 53703
Fax Number: (608) 204-0341

Email to the Board as a group:
comments@madison.k12.wi.us

Barbara Lehman, Secretary to the Board of Education
Phone: (608) 663-1659; E-mail: blehman@madison.k12.wi.us

[bvw]

It was written by a utopian socialist, to promote socialism. It has been incredibly effective. Look at all the decent folks who have signed on to support it -- to demand it. But I will not.

I will not because I know what real patriotism and loyalty is. And it damn well isn't helped by mindless oath-taking to an icon. Respect for the flag, flying the flag these are good things. Swearing oaths to it is not good.

Rather than the socialist allegiance, it would be far better if the our kids recited daily the Preamble to the Constitution, or the first few paragraphs of the Declarartion. Both of those excellent writtings are enfused with our national ideals -- in clear form. A form that the kids will take into there heart.

People have added and modified Bellamy's Socialist Pledge, they claim those modifications make it truly American and patriotic. I hold that is not the case, and that we already have far better -- the Preamble and the Declartion -- short recitable passages to teach our children with.

Moreover we NEED to teach our children those forgoten ideals every day. They have been trumped by the cheaper flag pledge -- which was of course a goal of the socialists.

So decide, for yourself, the nation you want. A nation that mindlessly follows however waves the flag, or a nation committed and reaffirming the ideals of the Founders -- a nation able to repel flag-waving frauds, and uphold the Founding Princibles that are our nation's true glory and inhertitance.

[FreedomPoster]

I had a college professor at Georgia Tech who was from that part of the world, graduated from UW in Madison. At the time, Wisconsin had a tourism campaign that included bumper stickers with the slogan "Escape to Wisconsin". He had one on his car, strategically modified to read:

Escape Wisconsin

Idiots like the ones on the Madison School Board are why he did so.

[brewcrew]

Not so fast, Kryptonite - Marquette banned a flag ceremony a couple of weeks ago because it might be offensive to foreign students.

That's right - I had forgotten about that. Gosh, it seems like a hundred years ago with all that's been going on.

Most institutions of higher learning are communist think-tanks. Best to throw one's support to organizations that actually reflect one's own philosophy. Like the U.S. military. Go Army! Go Navy! Go Air Force!

[Charles Martel]

The pledge is the simply the finest piece of Socialist propaganda ever written. I will not say it, and dang it, no American should be saying it, much less forced to say it.

I sincerely hope you forgot the < / sarcasm > tag. If not, I'd be reaching for the asbestos underwear, if I were you.

[Guenevere]

Just when I think I've heard it all!!!!!!!!!!

Good mercy!........I'm just sputtering!!!

[brewcrew]

Escape Wisconsin

Idiots like the ones on the Madison School Board are why he did so.

The other reason is being the third highest tax burdened people in the U.S.