I Need Argument Fodder For Peacenik Liberals Tomorrow Night

vanity | Yaelle

[Yaelle]

Please help me. I will be spending the evening tomorrow surrounded by old friends who are well-read (NYT, WP, LAT, NPR, CNN) and educated, yet as liberal as can be. One is even a Hollywood liberal, smart though as misguided as you can imagine.

He argued with me today that anyone who would feel uneasy getting on a plane with a group of Arab men IS A RACIST. That any fear one would have in such a situation, even so soon after the atrocities, would be irrational. I tried to hold my own on this point, saying that the time elapsed since the tragedy was so short that the fear is still rational at this point. I think we merely agreed to disagree, because he thought that any Arab currently asked to leave a plane should win a lawsuit against the airline. I am no racist, and I think it is very sad that any innocent should be so humiliated, but I feel that the innocent Arabs so accused are simply more victims of the terrorists and their attacks.

I am expecting mild anti-Bush sentiment, anti-protracted war opinions, perhaps the "America may have asked for this with all their horrible activities in the world" stuff, and an inordinate focus on "hate crimes" tomorrow. I am a poor arguer contrasted with the man mentioned above, but not for lack of passion.

I need nice, neat, friendly but firm arguments to counter any of the above positions. To whom could I turn but my eloquent Freepers? Anyone want to help? Give me your best. I will be grateful!

[The Electrician]

How about this approach (set flame-retardant suit on): one explanation for why human beings use the acquired skill of stereotyping (a.k.a. 'profiling') is that it is an extremely important tool which has led to the survival of the human species (through natural selection). For example, those humans who lacked that skill may have attempted to eat inedible objects (rocks, fecal matter, man-eating predators), or to mate with unsuitable mates (such as male to male, female to female, human to lion, or human to tree), etc. leading to the loss of their genes from humanity's gene pool. Therefore, far from being an ugly human trait to be avoided, the ability to successfully stereotype is a vital survival skill that only an ignorant fool would disparage.

That is probably both a great justification and one that will set their blood boiling, too...

Fire away...

[clintonh8r]

Finding new friends would be a lot easier and a lot more rewarding.

[Ragtime Cowgirl]

This is a little blunt, but I sent it to every name on a lengthy peacenik list last week. Received a few sincerely contrite responses from religious Americans who wanted to know more about the Taliban, and many that said a variation on, "you stupid idiot! You don't know anything!" I am very grateful that these folks are not in the military.

---

My letter, subject line: Peace? Reality:
You are asking us to surrender everything of value, our families, faith, freedom and bow down to 'Allah' in the naive and wrong-headed belief that these militant Muslims will care what you think or want?

The Taliban has been carrying on ethnic cleansing for years. Rights for women? Forget about it. Children's rights? If you agree with the state, they won't shoot you. Different culture, philosophy, race or religion either convert or...shoot them, or imprison and torture them. They are not like us.

These terrorists don't want to "understand" you. They care nothing for your philosophy, or sophistication. They use machetes on children, rape and genitally mutilate women, have kidnapped the children of unwilling neighbors and sent their heads back in a hatbox, peeled skin slowly away from prisoners until they die of pain, they don't care about "fairness," juries, or free speech. It's their way or execution, the death penalty, no appeal, no delay, shot in the head where you stand, your children shot before you.

You can be forgiven for your ignorance, but there is no excuse for your ignorance of these terrorists while you're carrying on your naive campaign. By your actions, you hearten these very terrorists, strengthen their resolve and endanger Americans and our allies.
From: Survivors Describe Taliban "Killing Frenzy"
-brutal episode. We are talking about the systematic execution of perhaps 2,000 civilians, in large part because of their ethnic and religious identity. August, 1998.

[xinga]

You could try some quotes from Kill Americans.

Another argument would be, “I wouldn’t be insulted if a young lady refused to get into an elevator alone with me at night, if I was an unknown stranger. She would only be being prudent, not sexist.”

[TheOtherOne]

Friday Sermon on Palestinian Television

"Oh beloved of Allah… One of the Jews' evil deeds is what has come to be called 'the Holocaust,' that is, the slaughter of the Jews by Nazism. However, revisionist [historians] have proven that this crime, carried out against some of the Jews, was planned by the Jews' leaders, and was part of their policy… These are the Jews against whom we fight, oh beloved of Allah."

"On the other hand, [what is our belief] about the Jews? Allah has described them as donkeys who must carry the books of the Torah – but they have not carried them. Our belief, which is true, about the Jews is that Allah is angry at them. They are cursed with the curse of Allah in this world and in the hereafter. Therefore, we say to them out of friendship: 'Oh Jews, come to your senses, return to the true faith; you must convert to Islam…'"

"Our belief is that this war, between us and the Jews, will continue to escalate until we vanquish the Jews and enter Jerusalem as conquerors, [and] enter Jaffa as conquerors. We are not merely expecting a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital; we are heralding [the creation of] an Islamic caliphate with Jerusalem as its capital…"

"Oh beloved of Allah, as we always say: When the battles between the Muslims and infidels begin, the martyrs and the slain Muslims will reach Paradise… in contrast, those who die not for the sake of Islam, after the deliverance of the message of the Prophet Muhammad… will end up in the fires of Hell…"1

Endnote:

(1) PA Television (PA), September 21, 2001.

[flamefront]

And this may likely be handy:
Tell them also that In the face of such evil, pacifism is immoral.

[Yaelle]

Of course all libs who stick to the mainstream press are brainwashed! Goes without saying. Very good idea about the reasonableness of precautions.

[The Electrician]

For example, those humans who lacked that skill may have attempted to eat inedible objects (rocks, fecal matter, man-eating predators), or to mate with unsuitable mates (such as male to male, female to female, human to lion, or human to tree), etc. leading to the loss of their genes from humanity's gene pool.

Of course, the unspoken part is "or to get on an airplane with a group of people who look like they fit the profile of terrorists who commit suicide by piloting airplanes into skyscrapers"...

[Anamensis]

Oh, also, if they say that "Israel should give up the West Bank" and all that crap, ask if they think that will satisfy the Muslims. Tell them that the Muslims want control of ALL Holy sites, which is more than just the West Bank. Agree that perhaps pressuring Israel to give up the West Bank MIGHT have been a good idea up till September 11th, but that now it would be seen as being in response to the terrorist attack, which will just give the impression that "terrorism pays."

Also, if they are against the US intervening in other country's politics, then they shouldn't advocate pressuring Israel to do anything. If they say we shouldn't give Israel aid unless they treat Palestinians better, ask them why it's not alright to refuse aid or business to Iraq till it treats the Kurds better. If they say a WORD about that damn embargo, tell them that SH was allowed to sell oil for funds for medicine, but chose to spend it differently. Are we supposed to somehow force him to spend the funds as we see fit? Isn't THAT interventionist?

[Alberta's Child]

He argued with me today that anyone who would feel uneasy getting on a plane with a group of Arab men IS A RACIST.

Tell him the story from New York over the summer about the immigrant from India who was approached by a black family (a man, his brother, his wife, and a young child) whose car was broken down near Kennedy Airport. The Indian guy did not want to be a racial profiler, so when they asked him to drive them home he gladly agreed.

They ended up forcing him at gunpoint to drive to a deserted area, robbed him of his wallet and other personal belongings, then shot him to death, dumped his body on the street, and fled in his SUV.

Sometimes it pays to be a "racist."

And tell your "friend" that I said he's an @sshole. He probably has never been alone in a dark place with three minority males in his life, unless they were blind amputees.

[Yaelle]

It's a neat little trap!

Love it. Sounds like you've had to use it, too!

[Logophile]

Anamensis wrote:

You might also try to make them state exactly what they think we should do. And make it clear that you don't mean "what we should NOT do" (war, bombings, deportations, etc...). When they start in on the activities of the CIA over the last 50 years, tell them that you want to know what to do NOW.

This is excellent advice. Put them on the defensive. You can do this politely, but firmly. (My guess is that they will soon give up and change the subject.)

[Oldeconomybuyer]

My only advise is to make things personal. There is a classic enviornmental test that my oldest daughter brought home as part of a high school class. The question was, if there were several deaths a year at a certain intersection, would you support safety improvements even if it disturbed the habitat of an endangered species? The class vote was 70/30 to NOT improve the dangerous intersection. Then, the teacher asked what if ONE OF YOUR PARENTS died at the intersection? Voila! The second vote was near 100%.

Try to equate the terrorist bombings on a personal level with your bleeding heart liberal friend. What if your mother was on United flight 11? What if your daughter was vaporized in the WTC, Pentagon or Pennsylvania events? Don't let them off the hook, make it AS PERSONAL as you possibly can. These folks believe in "the greater good" or "one world order" until it smacks them upside the head.

PS: Most of my family share the views of your friends and I LOVE arguing with them...good luck!

[Yaelle]

"Would you rather be dead than wrong? If so, doesn't that suggest to you that perhaps your ego is too involved in this matter?"

ROFL! How perfect is that!?

[bigjoesaddle]

argued with me today that anyone who would feel uneasy getting on a plane with a group of Arab men IS A RACIST.

Your not racist, your prejiduce. There is a difference. Racist means you judge and hate because of race, prejeduce is if you see a gang on teenage black men headed for you, you tuun the other way. EVERYBODY DOES THIS, IT IS HUMAN NATURE. If you saw a group of black teens headed for you, BUT YOU SEE THEM ALL CARRYING BIBLES you would be releived, wouldnt you. Yet they're STILL BLACK! wHY ARE YOU RELEIVED? If you were racist, you would hate them even if they carried bibles.

[Yaelle]

Re finding new friends: these are old friends, bound together by history, and we don't "hang out" together; we get together whenever the out-of-towners come to town, 1-2x yearly, and it's usually pleasant, but there was some strife last Nov. and we decided to NOT TALK POLITICS at all that time!

[Hot Tabasco]

I actually want to keep them as "old friends,"

I will probably not be as sympathetic as other FReepers here. Back in 92 about a week before the election I was on a "Road Ralley" with a van full of my socialist friends and eventually the conversation came around to the upcoming election.

At that time I was becoming "politically aware" and not well versed in politics. Well, to say the least, the fur really flew but I was outnumbered 8 to 1. Since that day, my relationship towards them was never the same. While we remain friends, I still get invited over for 4th of July picnics, Christmas Eve and New years but for the past couple of years I have declined their invitations.

I keep asking myself why and all I come up with is my own beliefs as to what can or can't help my country continue to be the best in the world. And when I look at my friends, all I see are people whose ideologies will ultimately destroy that which I love most. I guess for that reason I can not force myself to associate with people like that.

I guess what I have done was make a decision between my principles, my country, my future, the future of my nieces and nephews or maintain friendship with people who will unknowingly destroy all that I believe in. My "old friends", as you have labled yours, have thru no malice or intentional means become my enemies.....

[Anamensis]

It's effective to ask them what to do NOW because they don't know. All they can do is criticize what has already happened, they don't have idea one of their own. Liberals can only say what you SHOULDN'T do and what you SHOULD NOT HAVE done. They don't dare suggest what you SHOULD do because then they might be WRONG. And like the guy who dared suggest that you'd better not hesitate to get on a plane with some wild-eyed looking 30 year old Arab who is traveling one-way with little luggage, they'd rather be DEAD than WRONG.

You can always tell how furious I'm getting by the number of words I put in all caps. I've been on CAPS LOCK since the 11th.

[geaux]

The best way to handle liberals is to put your thumbs in your ears, close your eyes, stick out your tongue, and say, "PTTTTTHHHHTTPPT"

[Yaelle]

If you were racist, you would hate them even if they carried bibles.

Your point is simple but classic. They love to hurl that term "racist" when indeed prejudice (pre-judging) can come from common sense.

If I were at a party with fellow guests who happen to be Arab, I would not have a worry in my head. However, getting on an airplane NOW with a group of Arab men fitting the terrorists' profiles... Different story.