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1 posted on 09/11/2001 4:27:20 PM PDT by Looking for Diogenes
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To: Looking for Diogenes
I think they learned a lesson from the truck bomb which created a large crater but didn't bring it down.Someone with archectural training taught them how.
2 posted on 09/11/2001 4:31:57 PM PDT by tet68
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To: Looking for Diogenes
Fascinating. With both planes hitting at vulnerable areas, it sounds like very sophisticated planning took place. Who has the brains and money to do that? Bin Laden. Sadaam. And who else?
3 posted on 09/11/2001 4:34:11 PM PDT by PoisedWoman
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To: Looking for Diogenes
The most expensive commercial real estate in the world is no more.No other group of buildings could compare to its value or prestige.
4 posted on 09/11/2001 4:35:20 PM PDT by habs4ever
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To: Looking for Diogenes
We will have to rebuild the WTC in North Dakota, with 44 5-story buildings, each separated by a couple thousand yards.

Replace the rubble of the WTC with a memorial park, then burn down the UN building and make that into a memorial park as well.

5 posted on 09/11/2001 4:35:27 PM PDT by xm177e2
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To: Looking for Diogenes
Someone is going to be taking a serious look at the structural integrity of these buildings, especially since the structural engineer who designed them insisted at a recent conference that they were designed to handle a crash from a large passenger jet. It won't be easy to cover anything up here, since the most diligent people involved with the investigation will be the ones who work for the insurance companies.

My understanding is that the external tubular "lattice frame" was a new innovation at the time, and it was considered crucial in the design of any large structure because it minimized the amount of usable floor space that would be lost to internal columns. I don't mean to imply that the design was substandard, but I believe the World Trade Center was not required to meet City of New York building codes because the Port Authority of NY & NJ is a semi-autonomous agency that operates under its own regulations.

8 posted on 09/11/2001 4:38:01 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: Looking for Diogenes, PoisedWoman
Thanks for the article, LfD. It was a very interesting read.

Were there more than one "sect" involved in this hideous destruction of life?

11 posted on 09/11/2001 4:41:40 PM PDT by Slip18
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To: Looking for Diogenes
This would suggest they have an engineer helping them, I'm still not convinced there are very many people involved in carrying out this attack, though.
14 posted on 09/11/2001 4:43:11 PM PDT by xm177e2
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To: Looking for Diogenes
"He said that if the planes had hit the structures higher, they could have merely damaged their tops; if they had hit lower, they would have been up against the enormous weight and resistance of the base of the buildings. "

I doubt it. The planes would have taken down the towers if they had hit anywhere except the top floors. The structural support would burn away anywhere.

16 posted on 09/11/2001 4:45:31 PM PDT by elfman2
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To: Looking for Diogenes
As a civil engineer with some experience in structural design, I don't agree with this analysis. They didn't have to be hit at a weak point. The columns would not have been designed for the impact. The momentum of the plane (velocity and mass) was so great that if it collapsed enough of the columns at the level it hit or at a lower level, the weight of the structure above is such that once it started falling on the collapsed level, its inertia and weight would have collapsed anything beneath it.

That's one problem I have with these forums, there's too much uninformed speculation out there, and then others repeat this as fact.

20 posted on 09/11/2001 4:48:11 PM PDT by Real Cynic No More
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To: Looking for Diogenes
Yes, very interesting read. I had been wondering all day if there was something other than jetliners involved in this. The towers came straight down as if demolition occurred. The collapse reportedly has killed at least 200 firefighters alone, many hundreds of others plus police and rescue workers missing.

This article kills that conspiracy theory, hopefully.

25 posted on 09/11/2001 4:55:26 PM PDT by FlyVet
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To: Looking for Diogenes
In 1998 the two Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, opened; they are each more than 100 feet taller than the World Trade Center structures.

However, by international rules for judging building height, they still are not taller than the Sears Tower. Building height is figured to the top of the anchors for antennas since they are part of the superstructure. When the Sears Tower published its height, the figure given was only to the top of the top floor. It didn't include the antenna anchors. The dorks in Malaysia took that number as the one to beat. After they called their buildings the world's tallest, representatives for the Sears Tower pointed out the error. An international committee ignored international rules and sided with Malaysia. Incidentally, the top inhabitable floor of the towers in Malaysia is far, far, far below that of the Sears Tower.
26 posted on 09/11/2001 4:56:01 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: Looking for Diogenes
Could this be the end of sky scrapers? Will we now build down?
29 posted on 09/11/2001 5:01:24 PM PDT by aquawrench
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To: Looking for Diogenes
This was posted in an earlier thread

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b9e390647f1.htm

17 Posted on 09/11/2001 09:32:42 PDT by Plummz:

A word on the structure of the WTC towers: The WTC towers had a distinctive structural system which utilized the exterior wall framing for lateral bracing -- a so-called lattice framework. This allowed minimization of internal lateral bracing and opened up the floor plans. You can see the effect of that when the buildings collapsed, with the lattice framework crumbling and the interior imploding. The lattice works so long as it remains intact as a system: if a part of it goes, then the whole systemgoes. The planes punched holes in the lattice, one tower punched on two sides, maybe the other too. Portions of the lattice of the second tower briefly remained standing after the collapse,then fell. The system was considered daring at the time of construction, for it distributed loads more efficiently than legacy column-and-beam-supported systems. Probably the legacy systems would not have totally collapsed due to damage at upper floors, although floors above the damage would have come down if columns wereweakened.**********

30 posted on 09/11/2001 5:02:40 PM PDT by phothus
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To: Looking for Diogenes
I'm an architect in NYC and am familiar with hi rise construction. The WTC towers were designed with a structural system of exterior columns formed in 2-story panelized sections(you probably saw those falling to the streets in the footage today). The exterior columns form a continuous tube structure that provides rigidity against wind forces. The second means of structure was a rigid internal concrete core that encloses elevator shafts, exit stairs and mechanical shafts. This core also has solid concrete sheer wallsto resist wind forces. The combination of this original sturcure was desined to resist tremendous forces, including the impact of a fully fueled 707.

The WTC towers performed admirably today and they managed to stand even after the massive impacts that destroyed much of the integrity of the perimeter columns. I suspect that as the airliners passed through the buildings they also heavily damaged the interior core (and likely severed exist stairs to those trapped above the impact points).

The final reason the towers all fell today was fire. Fire is incredibly destructive, even to a hi-rise sturcture that seems to be fire proof. the reality is at high enough temperature, steel and concrete burns and vaporizes. It was only a matter of time before the nominal 2-3 hour of fireproofing protection applied to all structural members disintegrated under the intense heat of thousands of gallons of aviation kerosene burning unchecked.

This is what happened to the WTC towers 1, 2 and 3.

All buildings in the Unites States are subject to similar rigorous safety and fire codes but obviously none can save a building subject to intentional suicide bombings by large airliners. Unless you want to work in underground bunkers, NO BUILDINGS ARE 100% SAFE FROM TERRORIST ATTACKS!

I also watched from my roof as the WTC towers collapsed after I saw occupants jump 80 floors to their deaths.

38 posted on 09/11/2001 5:10:46 PM PDT by finnman69
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To: Looking for Diogenes
Why did the buildings collapse?

MASSIVE amounts of fuel.

43 posted on 09/11/2001 5:16:45 PM PDT by BunnySlippers
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To: Looking for Diogenes
As stated above, the WTC towers were designed to survive a 707 crash. These planes were much bigger and loaded with heavy, flammable fuel. Also, most planes that would accidentally crash into the towers would be flying at reduced rates of speed, probably 150-200 MPH. That second plane looked like it slammed into the tower at a much higher rate of speed, which would mean more energy to be absorbed by the building and more damage, especially to the core.
44 posted on 09/11/2001 5:17:02 PM PDT by BushMeister
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To: Looking for Diogenes
it would appear from this story that the planes hit at the same height on each tower, an implication which is quickly disproved by video. the story is a great example of a blowhard spinning too far. the acceptable target area for total destruction of both buildings was obviously wider than it pretends.

re the resources and expertise required to pull off today's attacks, it's plausible that it could've been done by less than 10 people, with less than $75,000, and no more flight experience than that offered by a couple of months drilling on microsoft flight simulator. all day long people are making the attackers out as possibly much more sophisticated and financed than perhaps they were; they were precise, dedicated, and fanatical, but not necessarily wealthy or well connected. if we don't reach the logical conclusions from that reality and act accordingly, we're going to have a long haul of being the world's new sitting ducks.

45 posted on 09/11/2001 5:17:20 PM PDT by AntiTyrant
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To: Looking for Diogenes
Check the concrete and make sure that it wasn't below grade.
49 posted on 09/11/2001 5:21:38 PM PDT by Jimbaugh
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To: Looking for Diogenes
The terror of today is the direct result of the loose immigration policy that has allowed thousands of Islamic militants to enter this country. Rid us of Arab and moslem immigrants NOW!
59 posted on 09/11/2001 5:34:45 PM PDT by imperator2
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To: Looking for Diogenes
Twin Towers' steel and concrete construction couldn't have  sustained the hit
By Sharon L. Crenson, Associated Press, 9/11/2001 19:52
NEW YORK (AP)

The image of the World Trade Center's 110-story twin towers crumbling seemed a scene of impossible destruction.

But the miraculous steel and concrete architecture that made them could not withstand the power of Tuesday's attack and ensuing fire. No building designed today could, said Masoud Sanayei, a
civil engineering professor at Tufts University.

Experts in skyscraper construction said video of the collapse led them to believe the towers were perhaps weakened by the initial impact of the airplanes that hit them Tuesday, but that heat from
the resulting fire was likely the most punishing blow.

Hyman Brown, a University of Colorado civil engineering professor and the Trade Center's construction manager, speculated that flames fueled by thousands of gallons of aviation fuel melted
steel supports.

''This building would have stood had a plane or a force caused by a plane smashed into it,'' he said. ''But steel melts, and 24,000 gallons of aviation fluid melted the steel. Nothing is designed or will be designed to withstand that fire.''

Sanayei said the heat may have disconnected one of the towers' concrete floors from the tubular steel columns that ringed the buildings. If one or two floors collapsed, it would have created a
pancake effect of one massive floor caving into the next.

''In my opinion, the fire weakened the connection between the floor system and the columns on the higher floors and caused a couple of the floors to collapse,'' Sanayei said. ''The floors are very heavy, made of reinforced concrete, so when one hits the next, they cause a domino effect ... and it can go all the way down to the first floor.''

Architect Minoru Yamasaki, who died in 1986, worked with engineers John Skilling and Leslie E. Robertson to design the fabled twin towers, once the world's tallest buildings.

In his 2000 book ''Building Big,'' architect David MaCaulay described the towers' engineering as ''a series of load bearing exterior columns spaced 3 feet apart and tied together at every floor by a deep horizontal beam, creating a strong lattice of square tubing around each tower.''

The core surrounding the elevators inside was much the same, with a giant lattice work of steel covered by poured concrete connecting the interior columns to the exterior ones. The design was free enough for each of the towers to hold 4 million square feet of space unencumbered by columns or load bearing walls.

Sections of exterior wall were wrapped around the outside in 24- and 36-foot high sections, creating a sort of patchwork so that not all the floor joints would meet walls at the same height, according
to MaCaulay.

Both Brown and Saw-teen See, a managing partner in Robertson's engineering firm, said the twin towers were originally designed to sustain a direct hit by a large jetliner, but that such construction couldn't make them fire- or bombproof.

Brown said it appeared the attack was meticulously planned.

''If they did it lower in the building the fire department could have gotten to it sooner. In its simplicity, it was brilliant.''

He said that the two towers have staircases in all four corners of the buildings and were designed to be evacuated in an hour, but it appeared that since the planes crashed into the corners, escape
was cut off for those on the floors above. ''I could never conceive of anybody being able to bring down
those two buildings,'' Brown added.

Minoru Yamasaki Associates issued a statement Tuesday saying the firm was in contact with authorities and had offered assistance.

''We believe that any speculation regarding the specifics of these tragic events would be irresponsible,'' the statement said. ''For obvious reasons, MYA has no further comment at this time.''
 

65 posted on 09/11/2001 5:45:40 PM PDT by Looking for Diogenes
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