Posted on 09/11/2001 4:07:58 PM PDT by Illbay
Just above the text box into which I'm typing, it says, and I quote, "NO racist or violence posts."
Ladies and Gentlemen, FReepers of every race, CREED and color, I urge an immediate moratorium on the nauseatingly bigoted comments directed against "Islam," or "Muslims," or any negative reference to anyone strictly because of his or her religion. FR is no place for this trash, and I'd like to publicly call on the Esteemed Moderators to hunt down and erase all such tripe from FR.
NOT!
It's us or them folks, - Choose your side wisely!
That is not, however, limited to only those who are Muslim.
You wrote this. Why must your deportation include non-Muslims then? Who besides Muslims did the destruction to this country and why should they be deported for what the Muslims did?
You're kinda funny, ya know...
That sure didn't stop the Allied Powers from fighting the war against the German government and machinery and *all* who "fought" in the war (on the side of Hitler) and/or anyone who gave "support" to Hitler (no matter what their reason or rationale).
I suppose you would have been "excusing" anyone who fought on behalf of Hitler, saying that we really don't know who "they" are.
Come on..., that's pretty ridiculous.
It's obvious who "they" are. Listen to Bush. It's anyone who makes those statements, who supports those who makes those statement, who incite others to engage in those things, whoever actually does those things, governments who support, house and shelter those people.
It's like Bush said -- it's time to pick which side you're on. You're either going to support those who support the kinds of activities you saw in New York and Washington DC -- or -- you're going to support their extermination (no matter what form that support takes).
Now, that wasn't too hard, was it?
One would think that a Baptist Minister would know that Islam did not come about until more than 800 years after the book of Revelation was written. Hence it was not mentioned in the Bible, except perhaps prophetically.
If you are a Baptist minister you must know that the Musilm's Allah is not the god of the Bible. Their God is reflected in the Koran which, if you are a Baptist minister, you know is not a Biblical Document and contains scriptures which are anathema to the teachings of Christ and the Bible.
Who then is the author of their faith? If Allah is a false god, then who are these people worshiping? Nothing? Does not the God of the Bible command all men to worship Him and Him alone?
Kill them all and let "Allah" sort them out.
Denouncing Islam is Biblical. If you mean what you say defend Osama's religion (whatever he may call it) or else change your post to allow condemnation of religions which you personally find distasteful.
I'd have to agree with you, President Bush, and the moderators on this one. America IS a Nation of religious tolerance. We should not lower ourselves to the same level of those who ARE our enemies. Although I myself may have posted a few outrageous remarks, it was meant for those who wish to kill Americans. The hog-crap bombs really COULD be used against those who wish to kill Americans and who think they'll be blessed with virgins in the afterlife for doing so. Remove the perceived shield of invulnerability, and let's see just how fierce these warriors are.
"Allah" is the same God that Moses received the 10 Commandments from. Islam deviates from Judeo-Christiananity in that it professes Jesus to be a prophet, just as it professes Mohammed to be a prophet.
It looks this way because that's the way it is.
Would that include godless, anti-Christian extremists, too?
Exactly. One of the best statememts on this thread.
But alas I bring you some tid bits . A few links to further lengthen your chain to truth, or your chain noose depending .
Here's one which deals with some of Western Islams camoflauging into something more palletable in the land of the free . Also on the same site there's this which helps one see the 'same God' lie for the falseness that it is .
God of Christianity vs. Allah of Islam
By Abdullah Al Araby
Both Christians and Muslims share belief in a sovereign Deity who is one, heavenly, spiritual, the creator of heaven and earth and the judge of all mankind. Christians call Him " God" and Muslims call Him "Allah". One may thus presume that the attributes of God and Allah are the same. A careful examination of the matter, however, will prove that it is not exactly so.
Muslim activists in the West have been using the tactic of claiming that they worship the same god as the Christians in order to gain legitimacy and acceptance. They have been using the name "God" in place of "Allah" in many translations of the Quran.
There is nothing new under the sun! This reminds us of what happened 14 centuries ago. When Mohammed started preaching his new religion in Mecca he was conciliatory and appeasing to Christians. He told them: "We believe in What has been sent down to us and sent down to you, our God is the same as your God." Surah 29:46. Compare this with what happened later, in Medina, after Mohammed gained strength. Allah then tells him to "Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day...Nor acknowledge the religion of truth (Islam), (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay Jizya (tribute tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued". Surah 9:29
However, the attributes of "God of Christianity" and "Allah of Islam" are quite different. God of the Bible is loving and personal, Allah, on the other hands, is wrathful and non-personal.
THE GOD OF CHRISTIANITY
Christianity believes in a one triune God, while Islam rejects this concept as blasphemous.
"They do blaspheme who say Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One Alah". Surah 5:73
The reason behind Islam's rejection of the concept of the triune God is a misunderstanding of the real meaning behind it. It seems that Islam's understanding of the Trinity was derived from a Christian heresy which existed in Arabia at the time of Mohammed.
This heresy taught a trinity consisting of God the Father, God the Mother (the Virgin Mary), and God the Son (Jesus). The Quran says:
"And behold! God will say: O Jesus the son of Mary didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah? He (Jesus) will say: Glory to thee, never could I say what I had no right (to say)". Surah 5:116
Christians, in fact, believe in one God who has made Himself manifest in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus declared this doctrine when He instructed His disciples, saying:
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". Matthew 28:19 & 20
The Father
Islam doesn't know the loving Fatherhood of God. That intimate relationship with God is foreign to Islam and condemned by the Quran.
"(Both) the Jews and the Christians say, 'We are sons of Allah and His beloved'. Say: why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, you are but men of the men He has created". Surah 5:18
On the other hand, the concept of God being our heavenly Father is at the core of the Christian faith. Jesus taught His disciples to pray, saying:
"Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name..." Matthew 6:9
The relationship between Jesus the Son and God the Father is exhibited on the Cross. We see Jesus addressing God as the Father:
"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Luke 23:34
"Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." Luke 23:46
The New Testament is full of references to God as the Father of all believers.
"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God... Behold, now are we the sons of God." 1 John 3: 1 & 2
The Son
Islam cannot accept the role of Jesus as the Son of God.
"O People of the book! Commit no excess in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but truth, Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not 'Trinity': desist! It will be better for you. For Allah is One Allah. Glory be to Him: (Far exalted is He) above having a son." Surah 4:171
Nor does Islam accept the deity of Jesus
"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: who then hath the least power against Allah if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all - everyone that is on earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is in between... For Allah hath power over all things." Surah 5:17
The God of Islam possesses all power over all things, including the power to erase sin if He so desires and when He so desires. This is completely different from the God of Christianity who is just and merciful, and who must work within the plan of salvation, to satisfy both His mercy and justice. The plan cannot be carried out without the sacrifice of Jesus, the Son of God, on the cross, on our behalf, in order to pay the penalty of our transgression.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16
The love of God towards sinners is against the spirit of Islam. Islam vehemently rejects the crucifixion of Jesus.
"That they said (in boast), . We killed Christ Jesus, the Son of Mary. ,,,but they killed him not, nor crucified him." Surah 4:157
The Holy Spirit
Islam looks upon the Holy Spirit as a created spirit the same as an angel. In many instances the Quran uses the name "Holy Spirit" to mean an angel. In the story of the birth of Jesus, the Quran states that God has sent to Mary "His Spirit" (meaning the Angel Gabriel) to announce to her the news that she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus.
"Then We (God) sent to her Our Angel (in the original: Our spirit), and he appeared before her as a man in all respects." Surah 19:17
The Spirit of God (as the Angel Gabriel) was also the one who allegedly carried the message of the Quran to Mohammed.
"Say the Holy Spirit (The Angel Gabriel) has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth." Surah 16:102
Because Muslims do not recognize the Holy Spirit, they cannot accept the Lordship of Jesus.
"No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." 1 Corinthians 12:3
And because Muslims don't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, they don't have the assurance of salvation.
"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God, and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ." Romans 8:16 & 17
THE "ALLAH" OF ISLAM
In theory Allah in the Quran has 99 names or attributes such as: Omniscient, Omnipotent, Sublime, Living, Everlasting, Holy, Light, Creator, Powerful...etc. In reality, however, the Quran paints a picture of Allah that in many ways resembles Mohammed's own personality.
Whatever Mohammed wanted, Allah wanted for him. However Mohammed reacted, Allah reacted for him. Aisha, (one of Mohammed's 13 wives) was quoted as saying to Mohammed scornfully:
"O Allah's Apostle, I do not see but that your Lord hurries in pleasing you." Al-Bukhari Vol 7:48
Here are just a few examples: When Abu Lahab criticized Mohammed, telling him, . Perish you, Mohammed! Did you invite us here for this?. , Allah immediately sends down Surah 111 to condemn both Abu Lahab and his wife.
"Perish the hands of the Father of Flane (Abu Lahab). Burnt soon will he be in fire of blazing flame. His wife shall carry the wood as fuel." When Al Walid Ibn Almoghira and Omaya Ibn Khalaf mocked Mohammed and boasted of their wealth, Allah sends down Surah 104 rebuking them.
"Woe to every (kind of) scandal-monger and backbiter who pileth up wealth and layeth it by, thinking that wealth would make last forever. He will be sure to be thrown into the fire (of the wrath) of Allah kindled (to a blaze)."
When Mohammed fell in love with Zaynab, wife of his adopted son (Zaid), God approved of divorcing her from Zaid and joined her in marriage to Mohammed: -
"Then, when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her We joined her in marriage to thee, in order that there might be no difficulty to the believers in marriage to wives of their adopted sons." Surah 33:37
When Mohammed's wives demanded higher allowances out of the booty taken from the massacred Banu Qorayza Jewish tribe, God settled it by telling the wives to either be content with their present allowance or face divorce. (See Surah 33:28 & 29)
When Hafsa caught Mohammed, in her bed, making love to his concubine Mariya, Mohammed tried to please angry Hafsa by promising her that he will stay away from Mariya. At this point Allah intervenes in Mohammed's behalf: -
"O Prophet why holdest thou to be forbidden that which God has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is oft forgiving, most merciful." Surah 66:1
*******
The next time you attend one of those "bridge-building" meetings, where a panel of a Catholic priest, a Protestant minister, a Jewish rabbi and a Muslim sheik, hold hands in solidarity declaring that they all worship the same God, remember these differences!
That bridge they are building is a one way bridge, leading only towards Islam.
Some history that is interesting . Some FReep'n thread from April that has some related stuff .The story of one 'prophet'.
"Beware of false prophets" (Matt. 7:15). Those who do ministry in a way pleasing to people and against the will of God, those who do not warn against sin, those who twist scriptures and try to justify any manner of living, those assembly preachers who talk about salvation though they themselves are not saved, babblers, those who do ministry with smooth and cunning words to satisfy their lustful desires, those who are likened to dogs which lap up their own vomit, those who give importance to signs and miracles but leave out salvation and holy life- the scriptures warn that all the above kinds of people are false prophets. The Lord tells us to beware of such false prophets and depart from them (Matt. 7:15-23).
In a nut shell the founder of Islam was a false prophet much like several spawned and 'related' to Jewish or Christian beliefs . Throughout history and to this day Muslims go through 'weak' times . Here in America they have to use cunning words, putting on a facade to spread Islam . Across sea however a good portion doesn't shun any of the Korans teachings, the terrorists are lifted as heros, defended by countries and paid well too .
I have no problem with anyone . I believe all are created in Gods image, all are His Children, though all are born into sin and in need of His gift . I am no better than Olsama Bin Laden , Saddam etc in Jesus' eyes . The only difference is that I have accepted Christ and he, like many needs Jesus .
Though for some reason I think the work on those is a bit much and that they will have what they've given, returned pressed down shaken together and running over.
Cheese .
That's the core of religious intolerance, and the seed of what ferments hatred between different religions. Everyone thinks they've got the absolute truth on their side and the other guy is wrong.
First of all, have you ever read the Old Testiment? The Old Testiment of the Bible is basically the Torah translated from Hebrew to Latin and then to English. Islam is founded upon the God of the Old Testiment. You mention that Islam doesn't have a personal God, well, Judaism doesn't either. In fact, the God of the Old Testiment is the God who created the Universe, is everywhere, and is everything. God in the Old Testiment sent plagues to Egypt, destroyed the Tower of Babel, and tested his flock in the Holy Land with many hardships. All powerful and omnipresent, His Wrath was inescapable and severe.
Getting to the fact that the original text was written in Hebrew, there is some difference between the Hebrew Torah and the Old Testiment in English. In Genesis from the Bible, a reference is made to "God created Man in His Own Image". Realistically, in Hebrew the text reads more like "God (plural) created Mankind in Their Own Image". It is implied within the Hebrew that God has both masculine and feminine aspects, and that is what is meant by "In Their Own Image", being that ALL life has both masculine and feminine aspects. Humans have males and females, along with all other mammals, fish, insects, and plants. For every Ying there is Yang. In fact, there are many similarities between the original Hebrew teachings and those of Eastern beliefs. Masculine and Feminine balance the Universe.
There are those who believe that the Trinity actually refers to Masculine force, Feminine force, and Recreated being (Father, Mother, and Child). There is also the Trinity of Life, Death, and Rebirth, eg. trees grow leaves in Spring, produce seeds, leaves die in Fall, and the seeds grow into new trees next Spring. It is the story of life for all beings. It is represented by God the Father, the Holy Spirit (Mother), and Christ the Son. In fact, this same analogy can be said to coincide with ancient Egyptian beliefs. The names are different, but they also believed there to be a trinity of Osiris/Isis/Horus.
Concerning the New Testiment, Jesus never referred to himself as God, nor did he ever claim that he was. He referred to himself as the Son of Man, and taught that we were ALL God's Children. Jesus himself was a Jewish Scholar, who studied with the Essenes. Jesus was, in fact, a Jew. As such, the Father that he prayed to was the same Father in Heaven that we all have...
Mohammed came along several hundred years after Christ. He himself considered himself to be a Prophet. I'm not all that familiar with the teachings of Mohammed, but I do know that the Allah Mohammed refers to is the same God that the Jews, including Jesus Christ, called God.
Unless you truely do know what you are talking about I recommend not responding but actually reading . You are welcome to either accept truths or go about rattling off as if you -haven't- paid attention .
Tolerence towards lies is not my game . Jesus hasn't picked anyone to pass up an opening to share the Truths of the Gospel .
The doctrine of the Trinity -- that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each equally and eternally the one true God -- is admittedly difficult to comprehend, and yet is the very foundation of Christian truth. Although skeptics may ridicule it as a mathematical impossibility, it is nevertheless a basic doctrine of Scripture as well as profoundly realistic in both universal experience and in the scientific understanding of the cosmos. Both Old and New Testaments teach the Unity and the Trinity of the Godhead. The idea that there is only one God, who created all things, is repeatedly emphasized in such Scriptures as Isaiah 45:18: "For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; . . . I am the Lord; and there is none else." A New Testament example is James 2:19: "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble."
The three persons of the Godhead are, at the same time, noted in such Scriptures as Isaiah 48:16: "I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me." The speaker in this verse is obviously God, and yet He says He has been "sent both by The Lord God (that is, the Father) and by His Spirit (that is, the Holy Spirit).
The New Testament doctrine of the Trinity is evident in such a verse as John 15:26, where the Lord Jesus said: "But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me." Then there is the baptismal formula: "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19). One name (God) -- yet three names!
JESUS -- That Jesus, as the only-begotten Son of God, actually claimed to be God, equal with the Father, is clear from numerous Scriptures. For example, He said: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8).
HOLY SPIRIT -- Some cults falsely teach that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal divine influence of some kind, but the Bible teaches that He is a real person, just as are the Father and the Son. Jesus said: "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come" (John 16:13).
TRI-UNITY -- The teaching of the Bible concerning the Trinity might be summarized thus. God is a Tri-unity, with each Person of the Godhead equally and fully and eternally God. Each is necessary, and each is distinct, and yet all are one. The three Persons appear in a logical, causal order. The Father is the unseen, omnipresent Source of all being, revealed in and by the Son, experienced in and by the Holy Spirit. The Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit from the Son. With reference to God's creation, the Father is the Thought behind it, the Son is the Word calling it forth, and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality.
We "see" God and His great salvation in the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, then "experience" their reality by faith, through the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit.
Though these relationships seem paradoxical, and to some completely impossible, they are profoundly realistic, and their truth is ingrained deep in man's nature. Thus, men have always sensed first the truth that God must be "out there," everywhere present and the First Cause of all things, but they have corrupted this intuitive knowledge of the Father into pantheism and ultimately into naturalism.
Similarly, men have always felt the need to "see" God in terms of their own experience and understanding, but this knowledge that God must reveal Himself has been distorted into polytheism and idolatry. Men have thus continually erected "models" of God, sometimes in the form of graven images, sometimes even in the form of philosophical systems purporting to represent ultimate reality.
Finally, men have always known that they should be able to have communion with their Creator and to experience His presence "within." But this deep intuition of the Holy Spirit has been corrupted into various forms of false mysticism and fanaticism, and even into spriritism and demonism. Thus, the truth of God's tri-unity is ingrained in man's very nature, but he has often distorted it and substituted a false god in its place.
In the Bible it makes no mention of a mother in the Trinity that is God .
Man on religion, is like a rotting log, hollow and over time fragile . My relationship with the Father through Christ with guidance of the Holy Spirit has been the best 5 years I've experienced .
Anyways, you're getting repetative and it does seem you haven't read a single word I've spent the time to type. When one starts refering to 'those' all the time they aren't paying attention .
Cheese .
Once more, never PC, for to be PC would mean to waver in His path .
From BERESHIT (Book of Genesis) Chapter 1
26 And G-d said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.'
27 And G-d created man in His own image, in the image of G-d created He him; male and female created He them.
There is much more to that than meets the eye in Hebrew, and is totally lost in any translation. Unless you have studied Hebrew and the text of the Old Testiment, you have no idea what you're talking about. You rely on an incorrect translation. The Torah was first translated from Hebrew to Greek in a text that was called the Septuagint.
For references on that, check the links below:
The Septuagint LXX: Greek and English
Catholic Encylcopedia: Septuagint
The Oracle of Tyre The Septuagint of Isaiah XXIII as Version and Vision
Three Early Biblical Translations
Seferim HaTorah (Books of the Law)
As various inconsistencies were apparent between the original Hebrew text and that of the Greek translations at the time, St. Jerome translated the Hebrew text directly into Latin. This translation became the Holy Bible of the Roman Catholic Church, and is called the Vulgate.
St. Jerome: The Perils of a Bible Translator
The point of all this is, there is no telling for sure what the original text really said by looking at a translation. The closest thing there is to the TRUE Word of God is what is in the Hebrew Torah. There are translations that touch upon what is written superficially, but there remains much within the Torah that cannot (or will not) be translated. The Hebrew alphabet is a numerical language. Those numbers are used to interpret the meaning of a group of words and passages. Without a THOROUGH understanding of that, a translation of the Hebrew Torah only scratches the surface of what is actually written there. The science of reading the true meanings of the Torah is called Gematria, and is that part of the Jewish Tradition called Qaballah.
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