Posted on 10/05/2023 6:30:02 PM PDT by marcusmaximus
It was a moment of humiliation for Moscow. The headquarters of Russia’s Black Sea fleet – a building of elegant white columns overlooking the Crimean port of Sevastopol – was ablaze. Smoke billowed into a blue sky. First one, and then a second Storm Shadow missile slammed into its roof. Video captured the impact: a precise, deadly, thunderous strike.
The attack on 22 September killed 34 officers, including Viktor Sokolov, the fleet’s commander, according to Ukraine. Russia denied this, releasing footage of Sokolov, suggesting he was still alive. Whatever the truth of the admiral’s fate, the blow deep into enemy territory was of major significance. It was further proof that Vladimir Putin’s full-scale invasion, 19 months on, had not gone to plan.
On land, Kyiv’s counteroffensive has made slow progress. Ukrainian troops have run into formidable Russian obstacles. But on water, it is a success story. Largely unnoticed, Ukraine has reclaimed the Black Sea at least in part, by turning it into a no-go zone for Russia’s bristling warships – no mean feat given that Ukraine has no navy to speak of, and a handful of old jets.
In Sevastopol, a naval exodus has occurred. Two frigates and three attack submarines have left port and moved east to the safer Russian harbour of Novorossiysk, according to satellite data. Five large landing ships, a patrol boat, and small missile vessels have joined them there. A cluster of other boats have sailed from Sevastopol to Feodosia, a port on Crimea’s eastern side.
Driven from Sevastopol, Russia has reportedly signed a deal for a new naval base. It will be located in the breakaway Georgian region of Abkhazia, further along the Black Sea coast. On Thursday the region’s leader, Aslan Bzhania, said the permanent facility would be built in the “near future”.
(Excerpt) Read more at theguardian.com ...
Sounds ominous… but it’s not. It’s a PR stunt used to beg for more missiles.
Meanwhile, the Black Sea grain deal is still dead, and the Uke army on terra firma is still bleeding out.
Even if the Russians had not suffered a defeat and retained forces there? It would have changed nothing significant about the war.
I refer you to the Mk14 torpedo and its relatives, which largely failed to hit its targets in the early to mid war. A shaped charge warhead won’t help if it’s not pointed the right way when the magnetic detonator sets it off. Also, a keelbreaker is actually more effective than a shaped charge warhead underwater, to the point where a contained liquid torpedo defense system does the same thing as spaced armor - it diffuses it into uselessness. Everyone had problems with their magnetic detonators too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ5Ru7Zu_1I
A shaped charge mine was experimented with by many powers leading up to WW2. It was discarded by all who experimented with it as there was no way to assure the copper/plasma jet would be aimed the proper way when it went off. The concept would not be revived until decades later in the form of some of the CAPTOR mines. And even then... Still has the same problems working underwater or through a conventional torpedo defense system.
The Black Sea Fleet was launching quite a few missiles at Ukraine, was a considerable blockade threat, and also a significant alternative logistical supply to Crimea. (Escorts for freighters and / or use the landing ships for logistical supplies.) Once Ukraine gets ATACMS, even a modest number, it’s bye-bye Kerch Bridge, and ditto for the rail routes through SE Ukraine to Crimea.
I’ve seen it suggested Ukraine might choose to not take full control of Crimea, for now, due to manpower considerations, but, it will be functionally lost to Russia, and whatever you may think, I’ve been listening to the Russian leadership about Crimea for at least 20 years: That’s a BIG deal to Russia.
How does shaped charge have more problems in water than a buried mine, when the water is a uniform density and homogenous medium ?
There may be a bit less opposition from the right than supposed. My Rep’s position is that he demands better oversight of support sent to Ukraine, but, with that caveat, he otherwise supports Ukraine strongly, is upset they’ve not received bigger and better weapons sooner, and firmly thinks Putin must be beaten back. Yet he gets listed as opposing aid to Ukraine.
BTW, yes, you are exactly correct about Vietnam. We did salvage Thailand and Philippines from the Communist threat. (My Filipina wife, born in Mindano, can tell stories from her childhood of Communist rebels hiding out in her home. The people in the village wanted none of that, they just wanted to be left alone, but were powerless to do anything about it.)
...especially once the fallout sets in. It’s a LOT worse than only Russian aggression. Say hello to $2-$3 trillion dollar US defense budgets — in 2023 dollars.
The water cools and diffuses the plasma jet, and a shaped-charge warhead does not have much blast effect. A similar sized all-HE charge will cause more damage through underwater shock. The concussion wave from the big HE charge is also omnidirectional.
That’s interesting because the MRAPs are supposedly mostly glass armour with steel or aluminum skin.
Glass and most ceramics have more than double the density of water.
What thickness of water do you start to get diffusion and cooling effects. ?
Biden is President. This one is on him.
Biden had a major role along with other Democrats in cutting off South Vietnam.
But only Ford is remembered as the President of the day.
It might not be just, but that is the way it will go.
A lot of what keeps MRAP occupants alive after hitting a mine is the V-shaped bottom that deflects energy and blast away from the vehicle. The composite armor is mostly to protect against thermal effects and plasma jets.
As little as 3-6 inches of water, depending on depth, is enough to render the plasma jet unable to penetrate less than 1” of Krupp steel armor. The modern solution to spaced armor countermeasures against shaped charge warheads is the duplex or tandem warhead and that would work here as well, but those don’t appear in a reliable form until the 1980s and they don’t become common on the battlefield until the 2000s - not developed at any time that battleships were common front line combatants.
Put it to you this way - a torpedo with a standard single shaped charge warhead would be unable to do much of anything to old USS Texas there other than poke holes in her antitorpedo blisters. You would have to hit her somewhere where the blisters aren’t and those are mostly bilges.
Good point. The ceramic core has a structural function in a conventional HE blast as well as disrupting the shaped charge jet.
I have to say my limited knoweldge of composites is foam or honeycomb core which is much ligher than the skin, but with very little modulus, or yield strength.
In this case the core is as dense or more dense than the composite skin.
These glass or ceramic core armour can have very high yield strength and hardness, but they have poor fracture toughness.
“Water tank” armor would only work against shaped charge.
True! The humiliating routing of the Russian Black Sea Fleet changes nothing. The fact that the Russians have lost many prized assets, including their Flag Ship, and that they are now retreating with their tail between their legs, changes nothing. The destruction of major naval assets is of no importance!
Regards,
His mother won't let him out of the basement.
The thread’s title baited the Orcs in.
Project sea power? Yes. Some geniuses will find a way to create a defensive envelope, but I submit the ships that result will not house humans.
The Ukes have not reclaimed the Black Sea.
This is a UK lie.
You do not demonstrate that:
That I believe (whatever it is you think these things mean)
These items are false
That these originated from Russia.
Until you do that, you are simply stating your opinion.
I’ll wait and give you a second chance to show “Russian lies I believe.”
You only get two chances before I have to conclude you’re just bloviating.
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