Cost of Bakhmut ‘meat grinder’ battle on Russian army revealed

The Telegraph ^ | 7 March 2023 | Roland Oliphant

[MinorityRepublican]

Russia has lost an estimated five men for every Ukrainian soldier its forces have killed in the battle for Bakhmut, according to a Nato official.

Speaking to CNN on condition of anonymity, the official said that Nato intelligence showed that Russia’s losses in the assault on the eastern salt-mining town far outweighed Ukraine’s.

The official also said, however, that Ukraine’s losses defending the city were significant.

Russia’s use of costly wave attacks have prompted comparisons to the First World War and the commander of the mercenary forces leading the assault has described the battle as a “meat grinder” for Russian troops.

Russia has been assaulting Bakhut since August, in what has become the longest and costliest battle of the war.

[popdonnelly]

5 to 1 isn’t enough dead Russians.

[BroJoeK]

Rdct29: "The propaganda from both sides is never ending.
I don’t care what the Russian media says but the western media is just as dishonest.
The coverage of the war is as crooked as Joke Biden."

The media mostly reports from the Ukrainian perspective, meaning they'll report Ukrainian estimates of Russian casualties, but not Russian estimates of Ukrainian casualties.
Nor do they report Ukrainian troop strengths & dispositions.

Still, the basic facts seem incontestable, for example, Russians have assaulted Bakhmut since August and still not taken it. That's pretty significant, don't you think?

[BroJoeK]

higgmeister: "Have you not heard of MAD, Mutually Assured Destruction?
If the super powers use nuclear weapons there is no choice but to launch on warning."

The basic idea is, if Russia attacks Ukraine with nukes, then Russians can expect to be attacked with nukes in return.
Tactical nukes?
Strategic nukes?
Nuclear engineering devices?
Who knows?

Vlad the Invader can expect that whatever he launches at Ukraine, Russia will receive in return.
How MAD is that?

[BroJoeK]

griffin: "Reads like a Big Brother press release about Oceania killing 5 to 1 of Eurasia's men.
I'm half expecting Hate Week to become a thing. What a pile of crap!"

What has been true since time immemorial is that entrenched determined defenders can inflict multiple casualties on attackers for every one that defenders suffer.

So, reports which say this are entirely believable.
Reports which say something different, such as, attacking Russians are inflicting multiple casualties on Ukraine for every one Russians suffer -- that we would not expect and would want to see more evidence of.

Yes, there are exceptions -- for example, when Ukraine was on the offensive last summer and took back some Russian conquered territory, they did it by breaking through Russian formations, forcing apparently panicked Russian withdrawals which resulted in massively more Russian losses than Ukrainians suffered.

But that is clearly not the case at Bakhmut, at least not yet.

[Alas Babylon!]

Russia using nukes only on Ukraine would get a whole new level of global condemnation and the loss of Chinese support, but would not cause the US to respond with nukes. That would be suicide for us.

We do not have an obligation to trade Kiev for Washington.

We do have an obligation to trade Moscow for Washington (and a thousand other places). The British and French have their own nuclear forces they could use separately, that is, not controlled by the United States. I think the British would rely on the US to decide, but France would absolutely launch if Paris was obliterated.

We would only launch ours if they launched a nuclear attack against us or NATO. That’s where mutually assured destruction (MAD) comes in.

[griffin]

Really?
US has no TacNucs any longer.

[epluribus_2]

Every day that foreign enemy troops are on their soil means Ukraine is losing.

Every day that Ukraine is an independent country means the Russian Federation is losing.

Every day both are losing, badly, unacceptably. So is the United States for orchestrating this obscenity from the start.

Most wars are stupid and sad.
No different here.

[griffin]

No pictures, no proof.

[BroJoeK]

Jumper: "That offense in this war spares the infantry with carefully prepped artillery fire."

My understanding of how Russians fight is this:

1. Step One: send out infantry conscripts or ex-prisoners armed & equipped with whatever is expendable.
   Their purpose is to draw fire from Ukrainian defenders.

2. Step Two: Ukrainian defenders, especially if they are also inexperienced conscripts, shoot at the advancing Russian infantry, killing some or all.

3. Step Three: Russian forward observers note the source of fire on their infantry and call in artillery strikes on the Ukrainian defenders.

4. Step Four: Ukrainian defenders are killed or forced to withdraw by Russian artillery.
   They reform at new pre-prepared defensive lines.

5. Step One: -- repeat and repeat.

Bottom line: Russian infantry's job is to draw enemy fire so positions can be destroyed by Russian artillery.

[griffin]

“Yes, there are exceptions — for example, when Ukraine was on the offensive last summer and took back some Russian conquered territory, they did it by breaking through Russian formations, forcing apparently panicked Russian withdrawals which resulted in massively more Russian losses than Ukrainians suffered.”

And you know this...but what means? Biden and CNN?

[BroJoeK]

"At least Putin was trying to have an agreement with the West, but Obama/Biden were not honest brokers."

If Vlad the Invader were honest, he would have joined NATO as originally planned in 1992 and as Vlad discussed with our Pres. Slick in 2000.
But Vlad wanted Crimea more than anything else, so there's nothing honest about him.

[BroJoeK]

unclebankster: "The war footage has sucked, with the high number of dead and destroyed equipment, you would think we would get some decent video."

YouTube does not allow posting actual combat footage, so to see that, you have look elsewhere.

I've never thought it was my job to watch people killing each other, so I've never looked beyond what YouTube allows.

[BroJoeK]

Alas Babylon: "Russia using nukes only on Ukraine would get a whole new level of global condemnation and the loss of Chinese support, but would not cause the US to respond with nukes.
That would be suicide for us."

I'm not saying the US will respond to Vlad's nuclear attack on Ukraine with a nuclear attack on Russia.
For one thing, we could do major damage without nukes.
I do expect that somebody would find a nuke somewhere, and Russians wouldn't necessarily know who or where it came from.

I'm saying the damage Russians would suffer from throwing nukes at Ukraine is incalculable, if not suicidal.

And for what?

[BroJoeK]

"And you know this...but what means? Biden and CNN?"

No, but my sources are admittedly pro-Ukraine.
They report Ukraine has won several battles, including:

1. The Battle for Kiev in April 2022.

2. Battle of Siversk, September 2022.

3. Battle of Kharkiv in October 2022.

4. Battle of Kherson in November 2022.

All told, Ukrainians claim to have won back roughly half of the territory Russia conquered since 2014.

[griffin]

I heard it was substantially overhyped.

Hey,just because I don’t believe the Biden/Zelenski/NWO lie does not mean I know the truth. Nothing about this war makes any sense. Ukraine lost all credibility with me over the Ghost and Snake Island. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

I have heard enough about Putin from Russian business partners and an acquaintance Yuri Maltsev (former Gorbachev team advisor, so to speak) to know he has a reputation as quite the liar. So I am not on team Putin.

However, in some cases (not sure that is the case here), the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Between the status of the western world nowadays, the reported corruption of Ukraine and Putin being a liar but some things in Russia being far less accepting of ridiculous principles (LBGTFOADQ!, whacko environmentalism, Agenda 21+, WEF, +++) than here in the west....I just am totally in the “I don’t believe a single f’n thing coming out of anywhere” camp.

But, from what I’ve seen and the results of this war being in an evident state of stalemate for quite some time....I am NOT believing 30,000 dead russians in past few months, any 5:1 ration BS and tales of equipment losses.

Just because I don’t believe the lies doesn’t mean I know the truth.

BTW, read thru your bio. Nice to make your acquaintance! :) I think Patrick Henry and the anti-federalists had it right, and (not that you mentioned it) I’m a 5-point Calvinist. :) Thanks for your service!

[ansel12]

America still has some tactical nukes in a few countries but we also have weapons now that serve much of the same purpose with fewer negatives.

[Rdct29]

Protecting Ukrainian borders while ours are being overrun by 3rd world criminals and mentally ill people is bullshit. This clown show with the diddler as its puppet can't be trusted to do anything that's even remotely in the best interest of America. We are being sold out faster and more blatantly then ever before. Americans need to take care of their own threats that come directly from our own government.

[Alas Babylon!]

There’s some good video on Reddit on the r/combatfootage subreddit.

[Freest Republican]

Hi,

Thanks for taking the time to post all of that material.

Oil prices almost doubled before any invasion thanks to the anti fossil fuel Dem agenda. He cannot afford to invade with oil at $35-$40/bbl.

His economy is the ruble and fossil fuel prices.

I did the math a while ago and I forget the exact number but I think it was the US alone was paying Russia $88million/day more under Biden than Trump for fuel before the invasion. (for stuff that we have under our own two feet)

That times the world is responsible for the invasion.

This is not new. Dems take over, war on oil, enriching the globe’s malcontents, often resulting in violence, war and death.

[woodpusher]

probably true

offense always takes more casualties than defense

No, it does not. Not in a case where one side is hunkered in a bunker without artillery or shells to counter a force with lots of artillery and shells. The people being fired upon, without the means to return that fire, are the ones who suffer destruction in disproportionate numbers.