2022 09 27 The Americans Declared War On Europe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6IIwltTM4Q ^

[BroJoeK]

ReaganGeneration2: "Your justification for “endless wars” to prevent another Pearl Harbor and preempt millions of deaths is a bromide that can’t be argued down, proven or falsified.
In short, there’s no limit to the “justified” interventions we could start, and did start, against every leader who does bad things, in every continent on the planet, until we are broke."

Go back and read my post again, you'll find no justification there for "endless wars", just the opposite.

"Trump understood that the way to prevent future wars is by economic & military strength supporting robust diplomacy."

Please read that sentence over and over again, until its meaning sinks into your brain.
Our problem today is the opposite:

"Democrats take the opposite approach -- let's be economically & militarily weak, diplomatically sniveling and preoccupied with issues like "global warming" and "social justice"."

ReaganGeneration2: "Do you think we have any money at all to keep up these paranoid interventions all over the planet earth?"

We have more than enough money to maintain a robust military posture, robust enough to deter the likes of Putin, Xi, Kim & whoever is in charge of Iran these days -- if we simply stop throwing it away on lunatic schemes to end global warming and pay-offs for Democrat doners.

ReaganGeneration2: "After the last 20-30 years of lessons learned - Do you think you all should continue to believe the neocon, Bush-Cheney-Clinton-Obama-Biden’s and their media scribes?"

Who are you calling "you all", Kemosabe?
Donald Trump well understands that nothing we can do is more provocative to the world's little dictators than turning ourselves from the world's superpower leader into just another weak & unreliable western ally.

The main "lesson learned" since Vietnam is that whenever we put Democrats in charge, our foreign enemies will win.

ReaganGeneration2: "Do you think defending Zelenskyy and, for example, his constant bombing of the Donbass for 8 years, are worth risking our own (or Europe’s) or the earth’s nuclear destruction?"

I think Zelenskyy has been in office three years, since May 2019.
Before that, I don't think he was bombing anybody.
I do think Russian occupation of Ukraine territory is wrong in every way and should be defeated.
If it's not, then we will pay the price for our weakness and cowardice many times over in the future.

ReaganGeneration2: "Why not pour every single effort we have into peace negotiations?"

The only way to negotiate with Putin is by credibly threatening him with very dire consequences unless he immediately withdraws from all of Ukraine.
Such threats can only be made by somebody Putin believes will carry them out, somebody like Donald Trump.

Overall, Russia was able to conquer about 10% of Ukraine, said to be Ukraine's most economically productive region.
Ukraine's recent counteroffensive is said to have won back about 10% of that and today threatens at least another 20%.
So Ukrainians are unlikely to give up fighting anytime soon.

If Putin responds with nukes, it will be the beginning of a new age, and not a nice one.

[ReaganGeneration2]

Your money quote was this: “we shouldn’t let things get to the point they were in December 1941 before we jump in to shut down the world’s little Hitlers”. In other words, what we actually did, for decades.

The “you all” are all you neocons who broke our nation with the trillions of dollars spent to get to this point, who favored intervening in the self-determination of dozens of nations, and who sheepishly believe what Biden and the msm say about Ukraine now.

(OK, and I’m somewhat understanding of your position, since I, like many of us here I’m sure, was a neocon too, after 9/11, but I humbly retract and regret.)

[Widget Jr]

40. Can you explain what did he say that was spot on to you and why?

[BroJoeK]

ReaganGeneration2: "Your money quote was this: “we shouldn’t let things get to the point they were in December 1941 before we jump in to shut down the world’s little Hitlers”.
In other words, what we actually did, for decades."

My "money quotes" all included the word "Trump" in them -- look for those.
The truth is that whatever the high-cost of peace is, it is infinitely cheaper than war.
War is the consequence of perceived weakness, of the failure of deterrence.
That's what happened in December 1941 and also in February 2022.
WWII cost circa 75 million lives and untold economic destruction -- that's what American foreign policy ever since is intended to prevent happening again.

Of course, that does not mean we have to fight every battle, or even win every war, but we do have to support the good guys every time, and in this case -- setting all Russian propaganda aside -- that means Ukraine against Russian invasion.

ReaganGeneration2: "The “you all” are all you neocons who broke our nation with the trillions of dollars spent to get to this point, who favored intervening in the self-determination of dozens of nations, and who sheepishly believe what Biden and the msm say about Ukraine now."

If you imagine that Ukraine is "part of Russia" and therefore deserves Russian boots on its neck, then there's no help for you.
Clearly, Ukrainians themselves do not agree and are willing to fight to remove Russia's boots from Ukraine.
If Russia prevails, then there's a long list of other countries which will be next.

As for "neocons", obviously you love that word, love to throw it around, even when it's inappropriate, you don't care, right?
The fact is, I supported the original "Mr. Conservative" back when he was still conservative, Barry Goldwater in 1964.
His book was, "The Conscience of a Conservative", still so far as I know the definition of conservatism.
In 1964 Goldwater supported robust military responses to Communist aggression, though in the 1980s he opposed CIA mining waters around Nicaragua without a declaration of war.

I would argue the difference is in the perceived level of threat -- high in Vietnam, not so much in Nicaragua.
Also, there was the Gulf of Tonkin resolution passed in August 1964, nothing similar relating to Nicaragua.

"WASHINGTON, Aug. 10 [1964] —Senator Barry Goldwater indicated today that he believed President Johnson had not gone far enough in last week's air attacks on North Vietnam.

Mr. Goldwater said that the nation must 'prosecute the war in Vietnam with the object of ending it' and that “taking strong action simply to return to the status quo is not worthy of our sacrifices” or the national ideals.

The Republican Presidential candidate said he believed he must point out that the President's action had been no more than 'a response, an incident, not a program or a new policy; a tactical reaction, not a new winning strategy.' "

So Goldwater opposed undeclared wars (i.e., Nicaragua) and he opposed fighting wars with no intention of winning.

I think that's still the conservative position, not "neocon", however much you love, love throwing it at anyone who disagrees with you.

[ReaganGeneration2]

You and the others who agree with you are classic Paul-Wolfowitz-”neo”cons. “Neo”, but it IS the same position US foreign policy has had for decades. And for all that manipulation of other nations, all that intervention, all that paranoia about “preventative” war, all that defense contractor money, all the deaths of our best men (see Vietnam especially) - where are we? At peace? No. We’re on the brink of annihilation.

Admit the overreach and move on. If not, okay, agree-to-disagree. We had good intentions.

But arguing with people about spending money on prevention to save money is no longer needed. There is no money to spend. Again, we’re BROKE. The reserve currency status propped up by all that saber-rattling is fake and about to collapse and turn into a Programmable-Currency nightmare.

There’s no real money to spend on a single base, ship, or CIA outpost outside North America anymore. We will barely have enough tax receipts for social security obligations and interest on the debt and homeland defense. No overseas interventions, very little social welfare, no NASA, no FDA, no EPA, nothing else.

[BroJoeK]

ReaganGeneration2: "You and the others who agree with you are classic Paul-Wolfowitz-”neo”cons.
“Neo”, but it IS the same position US foreign policy has had for decades"

Right, there's nothing "neo" about it, that's just a word, "neo-con" that you love, love to throw around, with no idea what it means, but makes you feeeeeeel sooooo virtuous to say, right?

ReaganGeneration2: "And for all that manipulation of other nations, all that intervention, all that paranoia about “preventative” war, all that defense contractor money, all the deaths of our best men (see Vietnam especially) - where are we?
At peace?
No. We’re on the brink of annihilation."

We've been "on the brink of annihilation" since before I was born, after WWII.
That's nothing new.
When Pres. Reagan negotiated the end of the Cold War, all they really did was announce peace and destroy some of their older obsolete WMD -- weapons of mass destruction.
Both sides kept all their newest & best stuff, ready to use at a moment's notice, if necessary.
Occasionally leaders publicly remind us that their WMDs are still there.
That's all that's happening now.

ReaganGeneration2: "Admit the overreach and move on.
If not, okay, agree-to-disagree.
We had good intentions."

What "overreach" are you talking about? Putin's overreach invading Ukraine?
US, EU & many other countries are providing military, financial & humanitarian aid to Ukraine -- is that your "overreach"?

Countries in blue provide military aid to Ukraine:

Countries in blue below provide economic, financial or humanitarian aid to Ukraine:
ReaganGeneration2: "But arguing with people about spending money on prevention to save money is no longer needed.
There is no money to spend.
Again, we’re BROKE. "

Naw... we're far from "broke".
We certainly are spending untold trillions on insane Democrat virtue-signaling, vote buying schemes.
As soon as all of that ends there'll be plenty of money for a robust national defense.

Here is an out-of-date chart showing what we've spent on national defense.
Notice that under Pres. Reagan, defense spending was just under 6% of GDP, then fell to 2.7% under Clinton, rose to 4.5% at the peak of WOT, fell back to less than 3% under Obama, rose to 3.1% (actually 3.4% iirc) under Trump and is now again headed for 2.7%.
The US could easily afford 4% on defense spending if we simply eliminate the most egregious of Democrat vote-buying schemes.

ReaganGeneration2: "The reserve currency status propped up by all that saber-rattling is fake and about to collapse and turn into a Programmable-Currency nightmare."

I certainly agree we are in a mess that will take both skill and time to work out of.
But the fact remains that no nation on earth is in materially better condition than we are, or soon enough could be, once we've put our financial house back in order.

ReaganGeneration2: "There’s no real money to spend on a single base, ship, or CIA outpost outside North America anymore.
We will barely have enough tax receipts for social security obligations and interest on the debt and homeland defense.
No overseas interventions, very little social welfare, no NASA, no FDA, no EPA, nothing else."

All that is total lies -- there's plenty of money for national defense, once we stop squandering trillions on Democrat vote-buying schemes.
That's a fact.
It's also a fact that peace is always cheaper than war, and war is the result of perceived military weakness.
That's what happened in December 1941 and in February 2022.