Replies

ReaganGeneration2: "Your money quote was this: “we shouldn’t let things get to the point they were in December 1941 before we jump in to shut down the world’s little Hitlers”.
In other words, what we actually did, for decades."

My "money quotes" all included the word "Trump" in them -- look for those.
The truth is that whatever the high-cost of peace is, it is infinitely cheaper than war.
War is the consequence of perceived weakness, of the failure of deterrence.
That's what happened in December 1941 and also in February 2022.
WWII cost circa 75 million lives and untold economic destruction -- that's what American foreign policy ever since is intended to prevent happening again.

Of course, that does not mean we have to fight every battle, or even win every war, but we do have to support the good guys every time, and in this case -- setting all Russian propaganda aside -- that means Ukraine against Russian invasion.

ReaganGeneration2: "The “you all” are all you neocons who broke our nation with the trillions of dollars spent to get to this point, who favored intervening in the self-determination of dozens of nations, and who sheepishly believe what Biden and the msm say about Ukraine now."

If you imagine that Ukraine is "part of Russia" and therefore deserves Russian boots on its neck, then there's no help for you.
Clearly, Ukrainians themselves do not agree and are willing to fight to remove Russia's boots from Ukraine.
If Russia prevails, then there's a long list of other countries which will be next.

As for "neocons", obviously you love that word, love to throw it around, even when it's inappropriate, you don't care, right?
The fact is, I supported the original "Mr. Conservative" back when he was still conservative, Barry Goldwater in 1964.
His book was, "The Conscience of a Conservative", still so far as I know the definition of conservatism.
In 1964 Goldwater supported robust military responses to Communist aggression, though in the 1980s he opposed CIA mining waters around Nicaragua without a declaration of war.

I would argue the difference is in the perceived level of threat -- high in Vietnam, not so much in Nicaragua.
Also, there was the Gulf of Tonkin resolution passed in August 1964, nothing similar relating to Nicaragua.

"WASHINGTON, Aug. 10

—Senator Barry Goldwater indicated today that he believed President Johnson had not gone far enough in last week's air attacks on North Vietnam.
Mr. Goldwater said that the nation must 'prosecute the war in Vietnam with the object of ending it' and that “taking strong action simply to return to the status quo is not worthy of our sacrifices” or the national ideals.

The Republican Presidential candidate said he believed he must point out that the President's action had been no more than 'a response, an incident, not a program or a new policy; a tactical reaction, not a new winning strategy.' "

So Goldwater opposed undeclared wars (i.e., Nicaragua) and he opposed fighting wars with no intention of winning.

I think that's still the conservative position, not "neocon", however much you love, love throwing it at anyone who disagrees with you.

You and the others who agree with you are classic Paul-Wolfowitz-”neo”cons. “Neo”, but it IS the same position US foreign policy has had for decades. And for all that manipulation of other nations, all that intervention, all that paranoia about “preventative” war, all that defense contractor money, all the deaths of our best men (see Vietnam especially) - where are we? At peace? No. We’re on the brink of annihilation.

Admit the overreach and move on. If not, okay, agree-to-disagree. We had good intentions.

But arguing with people about spending money on prevention to save money is no longer needed. There is no money to spend. Again, we’re BROKE. The reserve currency status propped up by all that saber-rattling is fake and about to collapse and turn into a Programmable-Currency nightmare.

There’s no real money to spend on a single base, ship, or CIA outpost outside North America anymore. We will barely have enough tax receipts for social security obligations and interest on the debt and homeland defense. No overseas interventions, very little social welfare, no NASA, no FDA, no EPA, nothing else.