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3 Realities Chance Can’t Explain About Life’s Origins That Intelligent Design Can
The Federalist.com ^ | May 17, 2022 | Granville Sewell

Posted on 05/17/2022 7:38:29 AM PDT by Kaslin

The theory that the universe was crafted intentionally explains many essential realities that theories based on spontaneous chance do not.

The scientific establishment is slowly beginning to allow scientists who believe in intelligent design to have a platform. Why? It may be because the theory that the universe was crafted intentionally explains many essential realities that theories based on spontaneous chance do not.

Perhaps the simplest and best argument for intelligent design is to clearly state what you have to believe to not believe in intelligent design, as I did in my book, “In the Beginning and Other Essays on Intelligent Design.” Peter Urone, in his physics text “College Physics,” writes, “One of the most remarkable simplifications in physics is that only four distinct forces account for all known phenomena.”

This is what you have to believe to not believe in intelligent design: that the origin and evolution of life, and the evolution of human consciousness and intelligence, are due entirely to a few unintelligent forces of physics. Thus you must believe that a few unintelligent forces of physics alone could have rearranged the fundamental particles of physics into computers and science texts and jet airplanes and nuclear power plants and Apple iPhones.

These four unintelligent forces of physics may indeed explain everything that has happened on other planets, but let us look at three essential elements of our human existence and examine whether the currently believed origin theory can explain them.

1. The Origin of Life

To appreciate that we still have no idea how the first living things arose, you only have to realize that with all our advanced technology we are still not close to designing any type of self-replicating machine; that is still pure science fiction. We can only create machines that create other machines, but no machine that can make a copy of itself.

When we add technology to such a machine, to bring it closer to the goal of reproduction, we only move the goalposts because now we have a more complicated machine to reproduce. So how could we imagine that such a machine could have arisen by pure chance?

Maybe human engineers will someday construct a self-replicating machine. But if they do, I’m sure it will not happen until long after I am gone, and it will not show that life could have arisen through natural processes. It will only have shown that it could have arisen through design.

2. The Origin of Advanced Life Forms

Furthermore, imagine that we did somehow manage to design, say, a fleet of cars with fully automated car-building factories inside, able to produce new cars — and not just normal new cars, but new cars with fully automated car-building factories inside them. Who could seriously believe that if we left these cars alone for a long time, the accumulation of duplication errors made as they reproduced themselves would result in anything other than devolution, and eventually could even be organized by selective forces into more advanced automobile models?

No, we could confidently predict that the whole process would grind to a halt after a few generations without intelligent humans around to fix the mechanical problems that would inevitably arise, long before we saw duplication errors that held any promise of advances.

The idea that it could even be remotely plausible that random mutations could produce major improvements relies completely on the observed but inexplicable fact that, while they are awaiting rare favorable mutations, living species are able to preserve their complex structures and pass them on to their descendants without significant degradation. We are so used to seeing this happen that we don’t appreciate how astonishing it really is.

But perhaps trying to imagine designing self-replicating cars, and trying to imagine that these cars could make progress through the accumulation of duplication errors, may help us realize that we really have no idea how living things are able to pass their current complex structures on to their descendants, generation after generation — much less how they evolve even more complex structures.

Lehigh University biochemist Michael Behe, in his 2019 book “Darwin Devolves,” writes:

Darwinian evolution proceeds mainly by damaging or breaking genes, which, counterintuitively, sometimes helps survival. In other words, the mechanism is powerfully de-volutionary. It promotes the rapid loss of genetic information. Laboratory experiments, field research, and theoretical studies all forcefully indicate that, as a result, random mutation and natural selection make evolution self-limiting. … Darwin’s mechanism works chiefly by squandering genetic information for short-term gain.

So, according to Behe, duplication errors, even when organized by selective forces, have the same effect on living species as we would expect them to have on self-replicating cars: only devolution and degradation.

Also, here we have not even discussed what is generally considered to be the main problem with Darwinism: its inability to explain the appearance of major new, irreducibly complex features that consistently appear suddenly in the fossil record. (I discussed this problem in my article “A Mathematician’s View of Evolution,” and in the second part of my video “Why Evolution is Different.”)

3. The Origin of Human Intelligence and Consciousness

Trying to imagine that the accumulation of duplication errors made by our fleet of self-replicating cars could eventually result in conscious, intelligent machines might help us to realize that the evolution of intelligent beings, capable of designing computers, science texts, jet airplanes, and Apple iPhones, is an especially monumental and unsolved problem.

In my video “A Summary of the Evidence for Intelligent Design,” I began my fifth point with a picture of three children in the 1950s. One of them is me, the other two are not. I saw the world from inside one of these children. I saw every picture that entered through his eyes, I heard every sound that entered through his ears, and when he fell on the sidewalk, I felt his pain. How did I end up inside one of these children?

This is a question that rarely seems to trouble evolutionists. They talk about human evolution as if they were outside observers and never seem to wonder how they got inside one of the animals they are studying. They consider that human brains are just complicated computers, and so to explain how we got here they just have to explain how these mechanical brains evolved.

But even if they could explain how animals with mechanical brains evolved out of the primeval slime, that would leave the most important question — the one evolutionists never seem to even wonder about — still unsolved: How did I get inside one of these animals?

The argument for intelligent design could not be simpler or clearer: Unintelligent forces alone cannot rearrange atoms into computers and airplanes and nuclear power plants and smartphones, and any attempt to explain how they can must fail somewhere because they obviously can’t. Perhaps this is the best way to understand why explanations without design will never work, and why science may finally be starting to recognize this.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: abiogenesis; apologetics; christianity; christisgod; creation; creationscience; crevo; deityofchrist; deityofjesus; etdav; evidence; evolution; historicity; historicityofchrist; historicityofjesus; intelligentdesign; jesus; jesusisgod; jggg; lifeorigin; mtac; newtestament; origins; resurrection; scientism; trinitarian; trinity; wordbecameflesh
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To: libertylover
Here’s my question: How did these creatures make the leap from being a one-time occurrence that lives briefly and then dies out to being able to reproduce themselves and maintain the population after the primeval soup is different?

Who says they succeeded the very first time?

The same or similar processes were probably going on at numerous different volcanic vents ("Black Smokers") or on clathrates or in some other micro-environments during the vast Archæan Eon for hundreds of millions of years before one managed to achieve sustainability. Countless populations undoubtedly arose and perished before the "right" metabolic path was finally found.

(And always with the "Straw-Manning!")

Suppose there are creatures that can reproduce copies of themselves. How did these creatures make the leap such that reproduction requires a sexual mating? And the creatures can’t go back to not needing a mate for reproduction? And why are there no creatures that require 3 (or more) different individuals to produce one new creature with the variations that would occur from requiring the multiple individuals?

Oh, this one is easy-peasy!

The assumptions implicit in your questions - actually, some of them are explicit - are simply WRONG! As in: You're mistaken!

There are species that have more than two sexes, for instance. And some vertebrate species that once had two sexes have reverted to parthenogenesis ("Virgin Birth") - the males have simply ceased to exist! Etc.

I note that it is easy to "poke holes" and/or pose seemingly clever questions about a field of knowledge about which one knows so very little!

The Dunning-Kruger Effect is in full play here, folks!

Regards,

41 posted on 05/17/2022 9:22:22 AM PDT by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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To: SpaceBar

Ego eimi

This sayers the Lord

The pinnacle of hubris is thinking that mankind is not in need of God


42 posted on 05/17/2022 9:23:01 AM PDT by Nifster (I see puppy dogs in the clouds)
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To: Leep

Or turkeys


43 posted on 05/17/2022 9:26:40 AM PDT by Nifster (I see puppy dogs in the clouds)
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

Well said


44 posted on 05/17/2022 9:31:12 AM PDT by Nifster (I see puppy dogs in the clouds)
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To: who_would_fardels_bear; libertylover
Another question along those lines: the Earth is huge compared to primordial life so why didn’t different combinations of base pairs evolve into different types of RNA and then DNA and then animals with different DNA?

Your question contains implicit assumptions which are incorrect!

(This is like asking, "If John Booth assassinated President Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1789, why didn't his Vice President, Thomas E. Dewey, immediately ascend to the presidency? That makes no sense!")

How do you know that different forms of organisms with different kinds of RNA and DNA didn't arise?

There were undoubtedly many different precursor organisms in the Dawn of Life. However, one form eventually hit upon the "right" metabolic mechanism - and then immediately proceeded to outbreed all of its competitors, denying them nutrients and Lebensraum, producing noxious metabolic byproducts that were poisonous to other life forms (see "The Great Oxygen Catastrophe" of 2.5 billion years ago!), if not outright PREYING upon them.

This is akin to the hoary old objection: "If Man evolved from Apes - How come there are still Apes!"

These - and similar naïve "objections" - were first posed more than half a century ago - and promptly answered more than half a century ago.

Regards,

45 posted on 05/17/2022 9:33:06 AM PDT by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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To: Pollard; BipolarBob
""God gave man the capacity to make flying machines to fly in.""

Yes by copying his design of wing shape.


46 posted on 05/17/2022 9:37:45 AM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: alexander_busek
I didn't say it was "compelling evidence". I said the Genesis account of man being made from the same components as the earth is similar enough to our belief in the elements to not call creation belief wizardry like you do.

Genesis 2:4 is the beginning of a re-telling with more details for the creation of man. Verse 4 seems to create the setting of telling the story again with "this is the account", at a time point before water and plants (verse 5). After the water came (verse 6, presumably with plants too) we get the intimate detail of God creating man in verse 7 and early interaction with man the rest of the chapter.

Again, it's a matter of perspective as far as God creating the sun, moon, stars, and light. The first 2 verses of Genesis (Genesis 1:1-2) define the setting that the observing of creation takes place: from the surface. Think to how we believe planets are formed, first as blobs of dust and water particles. Imagine going back in time with a camera that could somehow record billions of years of video and planting it on the "surface" of Earth when Earth was just a blob of dust and water particles and everything was dark because of the dense atmosphere. Gradually, as the atmosphere thinned you'd see light before you'd see the sun (like a cloudy or rainy day when you have enough light to operate but can't see the sun). Then the water particles would start coalescing and you'd observe a clear distinction between atmosphere and water below, but probably still not be able to see the sun. Eventually the ground would appear from the surface and plants would have somewhere to grow (probably the first macro-organisms visible to our camera). Finally the atmosphere would thin out enough so that you could see the celestial bodies.

Even if it's not a definitive "proof" of creation, it ought to be enough to at least get attention and marvel and how accurate Genesis was (and the book of Job for that matter) thousands of years ago. Definitely enough there there to not completely discount it as "wizardry".

And that's not even getting into the math for natural selection being off by a factor in the thousands. If you want to talk about a belief system that requires religion... LOL

47 posted on 05/17/2022 9:39:25 AM PDT by Tell It Right (1st Thessalonians 5:21 -- Put everything to the test, hold fast to that which is true.)
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To: Kevmo

Actually, the chance of life coming from non life is functionally zero

There is no algorithm, formula or concept that can withstand the fact that life begets life. Nothing else does.


48 posted on 05/17/2022 9:40:23 AM PDT by Manly Warrior (US ARMY (Ret), "No Free Lunches for the Dogs of War" )
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To: alexander_busek
It's not a naive question. Respected scientists have made claims that life forms based on arsenic or silicon are possible, yet carbon, which is recognized as the most amenable building block for life, only led to one form of long-lasting DNA.

Evidently there were some scientists around during the Great Oxygen Catastrophe to confirm their theory that other precursors existed and were all snuffed out.

The argument that evolution must be wrong because monkeys still exist would be more akin to someone discovering a life form with a different type of DNA and claiming that therefore evolution is bunk.

49 posted on 05/17/2022 9:46:10 AM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear (This is not a tagline.)
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To: Nifster; SpaceBar
The pinnacle of hubris is thinking that mankind is not in need of God

I am not suffering from any such hubris!

I would happily embrace your god - or any god - if compelling, forensic-level evidence were to be presented before me!

I could not respect any "god" that demanded that I believe in him - or be damned to all eternity to a literal "Lake of Fire" - based upon a jumbled collection of various old, fragmentary, and in large part contradictory "Just So" stories told by primitive, superstitious Bronze Age tribesmen wandering the desert, used to explain to their children "why the sky is blue" and "how snakes could talk." Then handed down orally for centuries... then finally collated and committed to writing, only to be promptly revised, edited, translated, and retranslated. Then to be supplemented by a books of a "New Testament" created under very mysterious circumstances some 30 years, at least, after the events they purport to describe... codified, redacted, converted into Church Doctrine, banned or relegated to "Apocrypha" by various councils, revived, "modernized," reshuffled, and republished. Then to be superseded by "new revelations."

It's all really rather pathetic - but that part with the literal "Lake of Fire" takes the cake!

Regards,

50 posted on 05/17/2022 9:47:02 AM PDT by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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To: Manly Warrior

Guys like Coppedge have been calculating some of the simpler aspects of this theory for years, like doing the math for a polypeptide to spontaneously form into an amino acid being on the order of 10^-31, and since a simple single cell life would require hundreds of thousands of those, the chance goes towards 10^-310,000. When they do that calculation to see how long it would take, the universe needed to be 10^160 years old to come anywhere even near close to reasonable chance of life happening, just looking at those chemicals.

https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evidence-for-irreducible-complexity-in-proteins/

To demonstrate that proteins are irreducibly complex you must demonstrate that the amino acids of the proteins are necessary for the protein to be functional and that removing or replacing the amino acids within the proteins will result in a loss of functionality for the protein.

“Mutations are rare phenomena, and a simultaneous change of even two amino acid residues in one protein is totally unlikely. One could think, for instance, that by constantly changing amino acids one by one, it will eventually be possible to change the entire sequence substantially… These minor changes, however, are bound to eventually result in a situation in which the enzyme has ceased to perform its previous function but has not yet begun its ‘new duties’. It is at this point it will be destroyed”
Maxim D. Frank-Kamenetski, Unraveling DNA, 1997, p. 72. (Professor at Brown U. Center for Advanced Biotechnology and Biomedical Engineering)

“A problem with the evolution of proteins having new shapes is that proteins are highly constrained, and producing a functional protein from a functional protein having a significantly different shape would typically require many mutations of the gene producing the protein. All the proteins produced during this transition would not be functional, that is, they would not be beneficial to the organism, or possibly they would still have their original function but not confer any advantage to the organism. It turns out that this scenario has severe mathematical problems that call the theory of evolution into question. Unless these problems can be overcome, the theory of evolution is in trouble.”
Problems in Protein Evolution:
per uncedu

Stability effects of mutations and protein evolvability. October 2009
Excerpt: The accepted paradigm that proteins can tolerate nearly any amino acid substitution has been replaced by the view that the deleterious effects of mutations, and especially their tendency to undermine the thermodynamic and kinetic stability of protein, is a major constraint on protein evolvability,,
– ncbi

Darwin’s God: Post Synaptic Proteins Intolerant of Change – December 2010
Excerpt: Not only is there scant evidence of intermediate designs leading to the known proteins, but the evidence we do have is that these proteins do not tolerate change.
– darwin’sgod

Extreme functional sensitivity to conservative amino acid changes on enzyme exteriors – Doug Axe
Excerpt: Contrary to the prevalent view, then, enzyme function places severe constraints on residue identities at positions showing evolutionary variability, and at exterior non-active-site positions, in particular.
http://nsmserver2.fullerton.ed.....lution.pdf

Corticosteroid Receptors in Vertebrates: Luck or Design? – Ann Gauger – October 11, 2011
Excerpt: Based on a realistic population genetics model, we calculate that the waiting time for a bacterial population to acquire seven specific mutations in a duplicated gene, none of which provide any functional benefit until all seven are present, is something like 10^27 years. That’s a ten with 27 zeros after it. To put this in perspective, the age of the universe is believed to be on the order of 10^10 years.
In response to our work, one critique was that we didn’t start with the right ancestral protein.,,,
,,, if merely changing binding preferences is hard, even when you start with the right ancestral form, then converting an enzyme to a new function is completely beyond the reach of unguided evolution, no matter where you start.
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....51801.html

Following the Evidence Where It Leads: Observations on Dembski’s Exchange with Shapiro – Ann Gauger – January 2012
Excerpt: So far, our research indicates that genuine innovation, a change to a function not already pre-existent in a protein, is beyond the reach of natural processes, even when the starting proteins are very similar in structure.
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....55171.html

“Enzyme Families — Shared Evolutionary History or Shared Design?” – Ann Gauger – December 4, 2014
Excerpt: If enzymes can’t be recruited to genuinely new functions by unguided means, no matter how similar they are, the evolutionary story is false.,,,
Taken together, since we found no enzyme that was within one mutation of cooption, the total number of mutations needed is at least four: one for duplication, one for over-production, and two or more single base changes. The waiting time required to achieve four mutations is 10^15 years. That’s longer than the age of the universe. The real waiting time is likely to be much greater, since the two most likely candidate enzymes failed to be coopted by double mutations.
We have now addressed two objections raised by our critics: that we didn’t test the right mutation(s), and that we didn’t use the right starting point. We tested all possible single base changes in nine different enzymes, Those nine enzymes are the most structurally similar of BioF’s entire family We also tested 70 percent of double mutations in the two closest enzymes of those nine.
Finally, some have said we should have used the ancestral enzyme as our starting point, because they believe modern enzymes are somehow different from ancient ones. Why do they think that? It’s because modern enzymes can’t be coopted to anything except trivial changes in function. In other words, they don’t evolve!
That is precisely the point we are making.
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....91701.html

“Shared Evolutionary History or Shared Design?” – Ann Gauger – January 1, 2015
Excerpt: The waiting time required to achieve four mutations is 10^15 years. That’s longer than the age of the universe. The real waiting time is likely to be much greater, since the two most likely candidate enzymes failed to be coopted by double mutations.
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....92291.html

Simply put, the irreducible complexity of proteins is demonstrated by showing that amino acids are interdependent and/or ‘context dependent’ in regards to producing a functional protein,

Moreover, Dr Gauger states that context dependent effects are found “at the level of primary sequence, secondary structure, and tertiary (domain-level) structure’ of proteins.

“Why Proteins Aren’t Easily Recombined, Part 2” – Ann Gauger – May 2012
Excerpt: “So we have context-dependent effects on protein function at the level of primary sequence, secondary structure, and tertiary (domain-level) structure. This does not bode well for successful, random recombination of bits of sequence into functional, stable protein folds, or even for domain-level recombinations where significant interaction is required.”
http://www.biologicinstitute.o.....ned-part-2

She is basically saying that there are three interlocking levels of irreducible complexity within proteins.

That ‘contextual’ information resides along the entire ‘irreducibly complex’ protein structure is also established here

Proteins with cruise control provide new perspective:
“A mathematical analysis of the experiments showed that the proteins themselves acted to correct any imbalance imposed on them through artificial mutations and restored the chain to working order.”
http://www.princeton.edu/main/...../60/95O56/

Kirk Durston states that the context dependency and/or irreducible complexity of the amino acids of a protein “reduce the number of possible functional protein sequences by many orders of magnitude”

(A Reply To PZ Myers) Estimating the Probability of Functional Biological Proteins? Kirk Durston , Ph.D. Biophysics – 2012
Excerpt (Page 4): The Probabilities Get Worse
This measure of functional information (for the RecA protein) is good as a first pass estimate, but the situation is actually far worse for an evolutionary search. In the method described above and as noted in our paper, each site in an amino acid protein sequence is assumed to be independent of all other sites in the sequence. In reality, we know that this is not the case. There are numerous sites in the sequence that are mutually interdependent, (i.e. context dependent), with other sites somewhere else in the sequence. A more recent paper shows how these interdependencies can be located within multiple sequence alignments.[6] These interdependencies greatly reduce the number of possible functional protein sequences by many orders of magnitude which, in turn, reduce the probabilities by many orders of magnitude as well. In other words, the numbers we obtained for RecA above are exceedingly generous; the actual situation is far worse for an evolutionary search.
http://powertochange.com/wp-co.....Myers_.pdf

How many of orders of magnitude are the chances reduced by the interdependency and/or irreducible complexity of a protein? The following paper on quantum criticality gives us a glimpse,,,

Quantum criticality in a wide range of important biomolecules
Excerpt: The permutations of possible energy levels of biomolecules is huge so the possibility of finding even one that is in the quantum critical state by accident is mind-bogglingly small and, to all intents and purposes, impossible.,, of the order of 10^-50 of possible small biomolecules and even less for proteins,”,,,
“what exactly is the advantage that criticality confers?”
https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/the-origin-of-life-and-the-hidden-role-of-quantum-criticality-ca4707924552

In fact, since quantum entanglement/information falsified local realism in the first place, then the probability is zero. i.e. There is NO chance! Simply put, materialism has no beyond space and time cause to appeal to so as to explain ‘non-local’ quantum coherence in proteins. i.e. No possible cause equals no possible chance!


51 posted on 05/17/2022 9:47:23 AM PDT by Kevmo (Give back Ukes their Nukes https://freerepublic.com/focus/news/4044080/posts)
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To: who_would_fardels_bear
[...] a being whose existence is His essence, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent

You forgot: Omnibenevolent.

Or did you?

Regards,

52 posted on 05/17/2022 9:49:51 AM PDT by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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To: alexander_busek
You caught that!

Current (and many past) events put that last omni in a bit of doubt.

53 posted on 05/17/2022 9:57:07 AM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear (This is not a tagline.)
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To: alexander_busek

You’re just not aware of the evidence. Plus, your requirement for historicity is biased towards your already a priori concluded viewpoint, only on this evidence alone. If you were to apply that standard of historicity to any other level of history, you would throw out all of recorded history prior to the printing press, and probably most of it after that.

You can start coming up to speed by reading
“THE NEW TESTAMENT DOCUMENTS Are they Reliable?”
https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1971569/posts

Then, once you have developed a rational viewpoint towards historicity, you can examine the PROVEN evidence that Jesus claimed to be God Himself.
https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3104583/posts?page=1#1

My impression is that you don’t post like someone actually seeking accessible answers, you’re just throwing up what you consider to be unanswerable questions so you can keep your current viewpoint. I would encourage you to seek the truth you claim you seek.


54 posted on 05/17/2022 10:03:22 AM PDT by Kevmo (Give back Ukes their Nukes https://freerepublic.com/focus/news/4044080/posts)
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To: Kevmo
If you were to apply that standard of historicity to any other level of history, you would throw out all of recorded history prior to the printing press, and probably most of it after that.

Read my tagline!

Regards,

55 posted on 05/17/2022 10:06:23 AM PDT by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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To: alexander_busek

It is not an extraordinary claim that Jesus died answering the question of His identity, before the highest court in the land. His enemies acknowledge what He said; His friends acknowledge it; indifferent sources acknowledge it; there is virtually no evidence against what happened on that day, that He died claiming to be equal to God Himself. Dying for mere words of blasphemy is not a miracle, it is not an extraordinary claim.


56 posted on 05/17/2022 10:11:17 AM PDT by Kevmo (Give back Ukes their Nukes https://freerepublic.com/focus/news/4044080/posts)
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To: brownsfan
"God did it."

Yes, He did, and a darned fine job of it.

57 posted on 05/17/2022 11:34:34 AM PDT by Carriage Hill (A society grows great when old men plant trees, in whose shade they know they will never sit.)
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To: alexander_busek

Umm, tvtropes.com is not a website for scientific or philosophical arguments, it’s a site listing commonly used “tropes” by fiction writers.


58 posted on 05/17/2022 11:57:34 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: SpaceBar

“If people simply treated each other better we could dispense with all these campfire stories (which they are) and settle on a simpler working model that doesn’t just make people smug because they think they know something you don’t, and foment centuries of bloody war, instead of just accepting our predicament and making the best of it.”

Except every time a society as a whole “dispenses with these campfire stories” as you call them, they become materialists and decide that just snuffing everyone who disagrees with them is a lot easier, and, since they don’t believe the campfire stories anymore, consequence free. So yeah, there’s that...


59 posted on 05/17/2022 12:03:09 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: alexander_busek

I feel sorry for you


60 posted on 05/17/2022 12:09:15 PM PDT by Nifster (I see puppy dogs in the clouds)
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