Skip to comments.Come to Jesus, Pogo.
Posted on 01/21/2022 5:23:39 AM PST by nathanbedford
Come to Jesus, Pogo.
It is curious that those opposed to American intervention on behalf of Ukraine cast the question as one of defending Ukraine's borders at a time when we will not defend our own. Tucker Carlson, for example, used that argument on his show last night. Of course, he was also at pains to argue that America has virtually no national interest in Ukraine that is important enough to risk war.
Neocons and inveterate interventionists cast the question not as a border dispute or a dispute to defend a nation's borders but as a matter of geopolitics, a matter of balance of power politics.
Academics and leftists of that stripe cast the question as one of morality arguing that Ukraine is corrupt, the European Union and NATO were unreasonably expensive and threatening so Russia is merely acting in accordance with its historical conception of geographical defense zones. Normally, these arguments lead the unwary into foreign entanglements that end badly. There is one moral consideration, however, that is at least awkward if not a real matter of national interest.
At the time of the dissolution of the Soviet Union, under guarantee from the United States and Russia, the Ukrainians agreed to the removal of their nuclear weapons. We and the Russians guaranteed the integrity of Ukraine. If we are concerned about losing credibility among our allies by making false in Afghanistan, how can we do it again to Ukraine? In other words, a moral question might become a realpolitik issue as it destroys credibility. I leave that for other conservatives to judge.
Although I think that Tucker is being too glib when he casts the matter as one of hypocrisy about defending borders, I think he is absolutely right when he asks us to count up our national interests at stake. I think he is also on the money when he insists that we put the matter into focus by understanding that America's existential enemy is China and not Russia. We cannot continue to squander our resources in foreign adventures and in domestic profligacy.
Accordingly, considering the matter as one of balance of power politics, the threat in Ukraine relates to China if Russia and China combine to form a continental landmass of resources and people that in combination is truly threatening. As Trump says, winning begets winning and, I would add, losing begets losing. We are on a losing streak characterized by Afghanistan but not limited to Afghanistan which threatens all our alliances, emboldens our enemies and threatens us with war, death by a thousand cuts and depression. China is on the March and Ukraine is but a pawn on the board but perhaps a critical piece.
Exactly at the wrong time, Joe Biden replayed Dean Atchison over Korea and April Gillespie over Kuwait. If Afghanistan made certain the death of Taiwan and Ukraine, Biden has delivered up both a benediction and a catalyst to their executions.
So Biden's Afghanistan fiasco and Ukraine gaffe have limited our options down to war, economic sanctions, or acquiescence. Our capacity to intimidate Russia into good behavior has passed, Vladimir Putin owns the the choices of time, place and manner.
What can we salvage?
The first question is, can Russia be either bought off or persuaded off invasion? That question much depends upon the posture of our European so-called allies. That brings up questions of gas pipelines and levels of trust in America. Joe Biden has ruined us with respect to both and for the remainder of his administration. Our allies do not trust us after our bug out in Afghanistan when we deserting many of them so they understandably have no confidence in Biden personally or as wartime leader. By endorsing the Russia pipeline, Biden has made Germany ever more dependent on Russia while Germany has increased the stakes by shutting coal and nuclear plants leaving Deutschland even more dependent on Russian energy.
NATO is a hollow shell with America alone as a capable fighting force but the world knows that our American society has not the national will to fight for Ukraine. That leaves the allies in Europe in much the same position that Biden (and Trump to a lesser degree) left warlords in Afghanistan-no choice but to cut their own deals and bargain for themselves. So there is no question of the allies waging kinetic war over Ukraine, the only question is whether the allies will unify in applying meaningful economic sanctions against Russia and whether a threat of those sanctions might deter the Russians from invading since threats of physical force are simply not credible?
How can we stiffen and unify Europe over sanctions? Send in Tony Blankley? Hardly. Count on Joe Biden himself? God, no! How much easier life is for Democrats, they would send in John Kerry to sell us out to our adversary and put a smile on it. The truth is Democrats' field team on the international stage are as weak as the Democrat team running our country. Our best hope? A leader emerges in Europe, perhaps from an eastern country of NATO, who has the charisma and vision to put together some sort of reasonable policy that gives Russia pause.
If Ukraine cannot be salvaged what can be done? That is another way of asking, what role do Republicans at home have to play in preserving the nation vis-à-vis China until sanity can be restored to our government?
The answer is clear, simple, stark but contrary to human nature: the Republican party must utterly divest itself not just of any corrupt connection but of any connection whatsoever with China. Virtually every American institution in one capacity or another, to one degree or another, has been corrupted or co-opted by China, the Republican Party far less so than the Democrat party but nevertheless the Republican Party is also in many ways also compromised. Our country is sliding toward the abyss of war, Civil War and depression. We are at the point where only real statesman of the quality of Lincoln or Churchill will do. Why are so many Republicans rinos? Follow the money. We are at the crunch, it's come to Jesus time.
Unless we have the moral courage, fortitude and character to ruthlessly purge our own political body we will not survive. The problem, Pogo, is not Ukraine, not even Joe Biden and, strangely enough, not China, the problem is we ourselves.
We have entered a very dark time. We stepped through the door in november of 2020. We’re just starting to look around the room and the batteries in the flashlight are going dead.
History is being made, but not in the good way. It’s just getting spun up. It must happen while the democrats are in power. That gives them to next november.
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. — Ephesians 6:12
Know your enemy and prepare accordingly.
If we ourselves are the problem (and we are), then how does the Ukraine matter?
^^ that right there.
“If we are concerned about losing credibility among our allies by making false in Afghanistan, how can we do it again to Ukraine?”
That ship has sailed, my friend. We abandoned South Viet Nam decades ago, and have done it since.
The fact remains that we have no strategic interests in Ukraine. None. There’s nothing there worth a single drop of American blood or another nickel of American treasure.
All talk of national honor aside Ukraine and Russia are two utterly corrupt oligarchies. Then there’s the tiny little logistical problem. Kiev is 5,000 miles from DC. The days of the US military being able to support a sustained military campaign half way around the world are gone.
Sending US troops there if things go hot would be a disaster. If the Brits or the French or the Norwegians want to defend Ukraine, then may God bless them. We have bigger problems in the Pacific.
“The problem, Pogo, is not Ukraine, not even Joe Biden and, strangely enough, not China, the problem is we ourselves.”
Spot on, sir.
You write so as it’s worth the time.
the political answer to the Ukraine is to divest from China.
Quite a jump there. But inadequate.
The political answer to Ukraine is to rid ourselves of democrats who pumped up Russia their entire existence, remove republicans who did the same, and get back to being the strongest guy on the block by ending all foreign company but American owned businesses and bring manufacturing back home.
None of that will work. We have brought our nation to it’s lowest moral low of all time.
2Chr 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;
2Chr 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
We have entered a very dark time. We stepped through the door in november of 2020.
I’m compelled, since you use a biblical reference, to point out that Melania Trump, one month before the election, proudly announced that President Trump was the first president to enter office supporting gay marriage. And how many times did he try to ingratiate himself with his Evangelical base?
I voted for Trump but this was a gut punch that sounded like pitiful pandering . It told me that even though Trump has alleged Evangelical advisers around him, he really doesn’t take God seriously and we may be paying a price for that.
The major historical lesson, taught by Russia itself to Napoleon and Hitler, has not likely been forgotten. Putin is smart enough to know that it would apply to a westward invasion as well as it did to the eastward. They have already recovered their (historically) Crimean Peninsula, and the northwestern border area, populated primarily by Russians. What else does Ukraine have that’s worth “civilizational risk” to the Russians?
Suppose Putin's client is not his own conception of Russian national security, or even public opinion at home but suppose his client is China. Why China? Because China is an enormous threat to Russia and therefore it is understandable that Putin wants to make an ally rather than an invader of China. China offers a huge market for Russian minerals and energy as well as technology trade-offs.
He might believe that China is the wave of the future. He might want to forestall China encroaching on Siberia with its population to simply absorbed Rushias mineral wealth. He might just hold a grudge against the West and especially against America- a little man's inferiority complex that puts a chip on his shoulder. Whatever the motivation, even if it is not in Putin's direct interest as we would calculate it on his behalf, as prudent planners we must assume the worst.
A new Russian dictator, Putin, may also have concluded that the West simply would not stand up to China and he had better pick a side while the picking was good.
I agree that the greatest threat to Russia is from their east, which makes it an even more of a low odds proposition that they will they will bet their civilization on a westward adventure.
I know that this is not related to the matter at hand, but there is a domestic political matter in progress (filibuster) and I have not seen any view along the lines of mine. A year from now when the 52-48(+/-) Republican Senate is being sworn in, Joe and Kristen will be hailed as heroes for their stand. Somewhere, there exists a Dem tactician smart enough to figure out that these 2 could make the stand and still get re-elected. I’m having difficulty posting these days, and so haven’t been doing much lately. Over the years, I have observed your ability to make and present a case. Hopefully, this observation will be worth your presenting in future threads on that matter. Thanks, M44.
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