Shroud of Turin: Interview With Expert of New Book Disputing Medieval Date Test

Townhall.com ^ | December 5, 2020 | Myra Kahn Adams

[Kaslin]

Source: ©1978 Barrie M. Schwortz Collection, STERA, Inc. Reprinted by permission

Although the birth of Jesus is “the reason for the season,” his death and resurrection are the foundational reasons we celebrate Christmas. And the ancient artifact that illustrates Jesus’ suffering, death, and resurrection is the Shroud of Turin — a linen cloth measuring 14 feet by 3.5 feet with a faint image of a crucified man that millions believe is Jesus Christ.

The Shroud has survived over two thousand years and is the world’s most analyzed artifact. Yet, due to its numerous unexplained properties, it remains a mystery. But the Shroud’s authenticity is controversial, mostly stemming from the infamous 1988 C-14 carbon dating test, which concluded that the cloth dated between 1260 and 1390 A.D. However, since 1988 those test results have been repeatedly disputed and debunked by many scientific experts.

Among those experts is Joe Marino, a former Benedictine monk and Catholic priest who has studied and written about the Shroud for 43 years. Marino’s newest book,

“The 1988 C-14 Dating of the Shroud of Turin – A Stunning Expose’” details all that went awry with the 1988 tests, scientifically and politically.

Given my keen interest in the Shroud, I have written numerous Townhall articles and several specifically about the C-14 dating controversy. Therefore, I am familiar with Joe Marino’s standing as a world-renowned Shroud expert and pleased that he agreed to answer some questions about his new book.

Strong>Myra Adams: What prompted you to write an 800-page book about the 1988 C-14 dating of the Shroud of Turin?

Joe Marino: When the results of the C-14 Shroud dating test were announced in 1988, I immediately knew something was wrong. Dating the linen cloth between the years 1260 and 1390 did not correspond with the extensive scientific evidence gathered before 1988. Most notably, the medieval dates conflicted with the “gold standard” of Shroud studies — the Vatican authorized 1978 Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) with its stunning conclusion that “there are no chemical or physical methods known which can account for the totality of the image.”

Subsequently, when I sifted through all the Shroud writings questioning the 1988 results, it became apparent that the C-14 testing was severely flawed. Then in 2016, I wrote a 175-page article titled “The Politics of the Radiocarbon Dating of the Turin Shroud.” After retiring in 2018, I expanded that article, which grew into an 800-page book.

MA: You have said that the book “points to irrefutable proof that politics – along with personal agendas – was the main theme of the C-14 dating of the Shroud.” Can you explain your quote?

JM: Initially, the C-14 test was to have been one of 26 multi-disciplinary tests. The process was then marred by enormous problems, including eliminating the multi-disciplinary tests, constant protocol changes, Machiavellian-type actions by members of the C-14 labs, and a complete lack of rigor in the science. All of that was accentuated by Catholic Church leaders making poor management decisions while authorizing and overseeing the C-14 dating.

Interestingly, in 1985, Cardinal Ratzinger (who became Pope Benedict XVI in 2005) initially approved that the 1978 STURP team could perform various dating tests on the Shroud, including C-14. But one of the C-14 scientists was convinced that STURP was composed of religious fanatics. A total falsehood dispelled by STURP’s team list and the prestigious U.S. government labs where most of them worked. Ultimately, a person or group overruled Ratzinger’s decision and eliminated all but the C-14 test along with the entire STURP team! THAT was politics.

MA: What do you say to readers who think the Shroud is a medieval forgery?

JM: Those who think the Shroud is a fraud should start asking why the C-14 test is the only major piece of scientific evidence to make that assessment. Then people must do some research (read my book) and quit making knee-jerk pronouncements about this mysterious cloth with properties still unexplained by 21st-century science.

MA: If the crucified male image on the Shroud was not thought to be Jesus Christ, how would the C-14 testing have been different?

JM: I’m convinced that because the Shroud is associated with Jesus, psychological factors impacted how the testing was performed. Some people have trouble trying to integrate science and religion. Suppose the image was thought to have been someone other than Jesus, no doubt that a routine scientific dating of the cloth would have been performed. But, because it is believed to be Jesus, many additional and detrimental factors were introduced into the C-14 dating process.

Consequently, because of massive amounts of Shroud scientific evidence (primarily from STURP), including the fact that no one has been able to duplicate the totality of the image characteristics (despite what some skeptics claim), most people expected the cloth to be dated to the 1^st century, the time when Jesus of Nazareth lived. Therefore, if the 1260-1390 dates are correct, then it can’t possibly be the cloth used at his burial. But now, there is overwhelming evidence proving the 1988 dating results cannot be taken at face value.

MA: These days, why should anyone care about the Shroud of Turin?

JM:The world is in a dire mess right now, and many people are looking for answers and spiritual comfort. And just when faith in Jesus is most needed, there has been a glut of “Jesus never existed” articles and books. Unfortunately, we can never prove 100% that the Shroud wrapped Jesus because we do not have his DNA. Yet, the longer scientists are unable to disprove the Shroud’s authenticity increases the chances that the Shroud is exactly what it is purported to be — the cloth that wrapped the historical Jesus — who lived, died, was buried, and left his body image on his burial Shroud at the moment of His Resurrection. That is very significant!

My wish is that the Catholic Church would basically stop keeping the Shroud stored away in Turin, Italy, for I believe the burial cloth belongs to the world. Science and technology have grown by leaps and bounds since STURP’s 1978 “hands-on” research concluded with the following statement about the male image on the cloth: “It is not the product of an artist.” New technology offers humankind the opportunity to learn much more about this mysterious cloth and the “man’s” image displayed on its surface.

MA: Do you believe that the central mysteries of the Shroud will ever be solved?

JM: We will continue to learn more about the Shroud, despite its relative lack of availability, but I don’t think we will ever solve all of its mysteries. If the Shroud of Turin truly wrapped Jesus, it will likely produce even more questions than answers. However, it might help some people answer the one all-important question posed by Jesus:

“Who do you say I am?”

MA: Joe, on behalf of Townhall readers, thank you for this interview.

[Elsie]

...backlit from both sides.

Oh REALLY?

[Elsie]

None of the Shroud dissenters ever showed how the image was formed nor can they explain the negative image centuries before photography was invented.

Likewise...

None of the Shroud believers has ever showed how the image was formed without conjuring up 'theories' about how it was done; none of which have ever been duplicated.

---

[Elsie]

Heck; Scripture has warned us about arguing over WORDS!!

[Elsie]

That fact that they did not mention the Shroud is not proof that it did not exist or even that they did not know of it.

This explains much of Catholicism today.

[Elsie]

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

[Elsie]

What does that leave you with?

This:

...once you eliminate everything that is not possible...

How does one KNOW when this point is reached?

[Elsie]

No theology comes out of the Shroud of Turin.

This is why unnamed 'apparitions' have to appear from time to time.

[Manly Warrior]

Let us all know when you fulfill all the law.

However, achieving such status means you have had to fail at least once. The curse of Deuteronomy 29 applies. Hence we need a Savior.

Jesus came and fulfilled all the law, every jot and tittle. It is finished. God Almighty is not mad at you. He punished a worthy man, the Lord Jesus, so He could forgive all the world (mankind).

Choose wisely, but your salvation is not in your hands, it is in the hands of. Holy and Righteous Creator. Please accept His offer.

[Manly Warrior]

And directly to your comment- of course not. The Law if perfect and Holy, but it is the ministry of death- brings about the knowledge of sin (missing the mark) no one can absolutely fulfill the Law. So, we are all condemned. No “pay off your debt plan” or debt forebearance or such. God is not a man that He should change His mind.

So He made a way where there was none.

As a Believer in the Finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross, I am painfully aware of the price He paid. And of course, I endeavor not to miss the mark, but alas. I do. Thank God for His Provision of Grace ( free gift).

I bet my Soul on the Grace of God. I do not deserve anything, but God has a Deed in Hand, signed in the Blood of a Holy Man, in my name.

The Bible tells me that I will be held accountable for my acts as a Believer, but the ONE THING, is paid for, the rest is living testimony to the Grace of God.

Again, Peace.

[imardmd1]

Well, I haven't found anyplace in my King James translation any place where a word is misspelled! But in my hasty writing, posted without better editing in order that it may be read before the thread has whipped by so quickly that everyone's attention is focused on something newer, well . . . I still have a lot to learn about how to respond to (a) an article directly, or (b) someone's comment on it, or (c) someone else's reply to another's comment on the article.

You seem to do a lot better, probably because a lot of your posts are much briefer; i. e., less words, less words to check over before posting--and less boring, also. Actually often rather more entertaining as well!.

[Loud Mime]

;)

[imardmd1]

Actually, the NIV which uses "dynamic equivalency" often does go beyond what is written, falls short of what is written, or omits even quite a bit of what is written. I wouldn't rely on the NIV as being a source that is hermeneutically reliable as a reference on which to found a doctrine. (And that is why my primary translation is the KJV, because of its superiority as a very closely examined and long-tested rendering of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and common Greek which the Holy Spirit used to communicate God's Will, Ways, and Work to mankind.)

Here is the literal equivalency of how the Greek of this verse is translated.

"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."

 What it "means" is a matter of interpretation, not translation. That is where the NIV takes the reader. Subtly, and without cautioning the reader, the NIV interpreters put themselves between the reader and what the Holy Spirit actually literally says, and to which He alone can give the meaning to the reader. In not giving the reader fair warning, they do exactly what Paul warns the Corinthian believers not to do.

Note also that the reader if not truly born of the Spirit, may miss the meaning entirely, because such a person may read but not be able to spiritually discern the sense of the Scripture. An that should apprise the observer that a Catholic unregenerate "believer" will have an unspiritual way of handling the Scriptures that sets them at irreconcilable odds with the regenerate spiritually mature truly capable teachers of the Apostles' doctrine.

This is meant to be a respectful reply to you over the very significant matter of the use of words, not merely a testy wrangling over them.

[Elsie]

Ok; what do you want for Christmas?

[Elsie]

Actually, the NIV which uses "dynamic equivalency" often does go beyond what is written, falls short of what is written, or omits even quite a bit of what is written.

I'm sure glad the KJV does none of these things!

[Elsie]

Folks that have played this game for very long soon come to realize that NO translation is going to convey EXACTLY what the original writers intended in every instance.

I daresay that if the NT was written in 20^th century American English; we'd STILL need to have it 'interpreted' for some people: a lot of them right here on FR!

[Elsie]

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

 

 

Heck; let's look at all of them!!

New Living Translation
Dear brothers and sisters, I have used Apollos and myself to illustrate what I’ve been saying. If you pay attention to what I have quoted from the Scriptures, you won’t be proud of one of your leaders at the expense of another.

English Standard Version
I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

Berean Study Bible
Brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us not to go beyond what is written. Then you will not take pride in one man over another.

Berean Literal Bible
Now I have applied these things, brothers, to myself and Apollos, on account of you, so that in us you may learn, "not beyond what has been written," so that not one of you should be puffed up for one over the other.

New American Standard Bible
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.

New King James Version
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.

King James Bible
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

Christian Standard Bible
Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying: "Nothing beyond what is written." The purpose is that none of you will be arrogant, favoring one person over another.

Contemporary English Version
Friends, I have used Apollos and myself as examples to teach you the meaning of the saying, "Follow the rules." I want you to stop saying one of us is better than the other.

Good News Translation
For your sake, my friends, I have applied all this to Apollos and me, using the two of us as an example, so that you may learn what the saying means, "Observe the proper rules." None of you should be proud of one person and despise another.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the saying: "Nothing beyond what is written." The purpose is that none of you will be inflated with pride in favor of one person over another.

International Standard Version
Brothers, I have applied all this to Apollos and myself for your benefit, so that you may learn from us not to go beyond what the Scriptures say. Then you will stop boasting about one person at the expense of another.

NET Bible
I have applied these things to myself and Apollos because of you, brothers and sisters, so that through us you may learn "not to go beyond what is written," so that none of you will be puffed up in favor of the one against the other.

New Heart English Bible
Now these things, brothers, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to go beyond the things which are written, that none of you be puffed up against one another.

A Faithful Version
Now these things, brethren, I have applied to Apollos and myself for your sakes; that in us you may learn not to think of men beyond what is written, so that no one among you is puffed up on behalf of one of us against the other.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But I have established these things, my brethren, for your sakes concerning my person and that of Apollo, that you may learn by us not to suppose more than whatever is written and that a man should not be lifted up against his fellow man because of anyone.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Brothers and sisters, I have applied this to Apollos and myself for your sake. You should learn from us not to go beyond what is written in Scripture. Then you won't arrogantly place one of us in opposition to the other.

New American Standard 1977
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.

King James 2000 Bible
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that you might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

American King James Version
And these things, brothers, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that you might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

American Standard Version
Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollo, for your sakes; that in us you may learn, that one be not puffed up against the other for another, above that which is written.

Darby Bible Translation
Now these things, brethren, I have transferred, in their application, to myself and Apollos, for your sakes, that ye may learn in us the [lesson of] not [letting your thoughts go] above what is written, that ye may not be puffed up one for [such a] one against another.

English Revised Version
Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.

Webster's Bible Translation
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself, and to Apollos, for your sakes; that ye may learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you on account of one, may be puffed up against another.

Weymouth New Testament
In writing this much, brethren, with special reference to Apollos and myself, I have done so for your sakes, in order to teach you by our example what those words mean, which say, "Nothing beyond what is written!" --so that you may cease to take sides in boastful rivalry, for one teacher against another.

World English Bible
Now these things, brothers, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to think beyond the things which are written, that none of you be puffed up against one another.

Young's Literal Translation
And these things, brethren, I did transfer to myself and to Apollos because of you, that in us ye may learn not to think above that which hath been written, that ye may not be puffed up one for one against the other.

[Elsie]

 

 

 

 "And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes;

that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."
 

King James Bible
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

New King James Version
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think ?? beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.

King James 2000 Bible
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that you might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

American King James Version
And these things, brothers, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that you might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

 

---

 

What do the italicized words in the KJV mean??   https://kjbrc.org/the-use-of-italics-in-the-king-james-bible/

 

 

[Elsie]

(And that is why my primary translation is the KJV, because of its superiority as a very closely examined and long-tested rendering of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and common Greek which the Holy Spirit used to communicate God's Will, Ways, and Work to mankind.)

Really ?

I pity them poor Germans, Spaniards, Chinese, Russians, and all the other languages that are spoken across the world, for not being able to get the true, pure translation rendered in the King's English.

---

I wonder...

...whether that Ethiopian eunuch; reading the writing of Esaias; read it in Hebrew or a Septuagint translation that Philip helped him to understand?

[imardmd1]

Ok; what do you want for Christmas?

Whatever my Heavenly Father chooses, but I believe He's already given it; to wit, the new life in Christ. I don't see how He can improve on perfection!

[imardmd1]

Folks that have played this game for very long soon come to realize that NO translation is going to convey EXACTLY what the original writers intended in every instance.

But some are going to come a LOT closer to the original than others. KJV is the best, so far.

NIV is sly, exemplifying the "dynamic equivalency" species of Scripture substitutes. It both adds to, takes away from, and/or eliminates what the inspired witnesses put into writing, just as Eve did in responding to the subtle Serpent regarding its quiz about what God said.

The NIV interpreters tell you what they want you to hear, not what God wants you to hear. even withholding some of it. You need to get a copy of Chick Salliby's book "If The Foundations Be Destroyed" (click here) and ponder on it.

If you don't already have it, you can get it from Amazon (click here) or from Salliby himself, Word and Prayer Ministries (click here).

You'll like him; he's Arminian in theology, Pentecostal, now I believe.(originally Free Methodist??). I also have his other book "Yet So As By Fire," well written but I don't believe it is as helpful theologically.