Shroud of Turin: Interview With Expert of New Book Disputing Medieval Date Test

Townhall.com ^ | December 5, 2020 | Myra Kahn Adams

[Elsie]

...backlit from both sides.

Oh REALLY?

[Elsie]

None of the Shroud dissenters ever showed how the image was formed nor can they explain the negative image centuries before photography was invented.

Likewise...

None of the Shroud believers has ever showed how the image was formed without conjuring up 'theories' about how it was done; none of which have ever been duplicated.

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[Elsie]

Heck; Scripture has warned us about arguing over WORDS!!

[Elsie]

That fact that they did not mention the Shroud is not proof that it did not exist or even that they did not know of it.

This explains much of Catholicism today.

[Elsie]

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

[Elsie]

What does that leave you with?

This:

...once you eliminate everything that is not possible...

How does one KNOW when this point is reached?

[Elsie]

No theology comes out of the Shroud of Turin.

This is why unnamed 'apparitions' have to appear from time to time.

[Manly Warrior]

Let us all know when you fulfill all the law.

However, achieving such status means you have had to fail at least once. The curse of Deuteronomy 29 applies. Hence we need a Savior.

Jesus came and fulfilled all the law, every jot and tittle. It is finished. God Almighty is not mad at you. He punished a worthy man, the Lord Jesus, so He could forgive all the world (mankind).

Choose wisely, but your salvation is not in your hands, it is in the hands of. Holy and Righteous Creator. Please accept His offer.

[Manly Warrior]

And directly to your comment- of course not. The Law if perfect and Holy, but it is the ministry of death- brings about the knowledge of sin (missing the mark) no one can absolutely fulfill the Law. So, we are all condemned. No “pay off your debt plan” or debt forebearance or such. God is not a man that He should change His mind.

So He made a way where there was none.

As a Believer in the Finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross, I am painfully aware of the price He paid. And of course, I endeavor not to miss the mark, but alas. I do. Thank God for His Provision of Grace ( free gift).

I bet my Soul on the Grace of God. I do not deserve anything, but God has a Deed in Hand, signed in the Blood of a Holy Man, in my name.

The Bible tells me that I will be held accountable for my acts as a Believer, but the ONE THING, is paid for, the rest is living testimony to the Grace of God.

Again, Peace.

[imardmd1]

Well, I haven't found anyplace in my King James translation any place where a word is misspelled! But in my hasty writing, posted without better editing in order that it may be read before the thread has whipped by so quickly that everyone's attention is focused on something newer, well . . . I still have a lot to learn about how to respond to (a) an article directly, or (b) someone's comment on it, or (c) someone else's reply to another's comment on the article.

You seem to do a lot better, probably because a lot of your posts are much briefer; i. e., less words, less words to check over before posting--and less boring, also. Actually often rather more entertaining as well!.

[Loud Mime]

;)

[imardmd1]

Actually, the NIV which uses "dynamic equivalency" often does go beyond what is written, falls short of what is written, or omits even quite a bit of what is written. I wouldn't rely on the NIV as being a source that is hermeneutically reliable as a reference on which to found a doctrine. (And that is why my primary translation is the KJV, because of its superiority as a very closely examined and long-tested rendering of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and common Greek which the Holy Spirit used to communicate God's Will, Ways, and Work to mankind.)

Here is the literal equivalency of how the Greek of this verse is translated.

"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."

 What it "means" is a matter of interpretation, not translation. That is where the NIV takes the reader. Subtly, and without cautioning the reader, the NIV interpreters put themselves between the reader and what the Holy Spirit actually literally says, and to which He alone can give the meaning to the reader. In not giving the reader fair warning, they do exactly what Paul warns the Corinthian believers not to do.

Note also that the reader if not truly born of the Spirit, may miss the meaning entirely, because such a person may read but not be able to spiritually discern the sense of the Scripture. An that should apprise the observer that a Catholic unregenerate "believer" will have an unspiritual way of handling the Scriptures that sets them at irreconcilable odds with the regenerate spiritually mature truly capable teachers of the Apostles' doctrine.

This is meant to be a respectful reply to you over the very significant matter of the use of words, not merely a testy wrangling over them.

[Elsie]

Ok; what do you want for Christmas?

[Elsie]

Actually, the NIV which uses "dynamic equivalency" often does go beyond what is written, falls short of what is written, or omits even quite a bit of what is written.

I'm sure glad the KJV does none of these things!

[Elsie]

Folks that have played this game for very long soon come to realize that NO translation is going to convey EXACTLY what the original writers intended in every instance.

I daresay that if the NT was written in 20^th century American English; we'd STILL need to have it 'interpreted' for some people: a lot of them right here on FR!

[Elsie]

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

 

 

Heck; let's look at all of them!!

New Living Translation
Dear brothers and sisters, I have used Apollos and myself to illustrate what I’ve been saying. If you pay attention to what I have quoted from the Scriptures, you won’t be proud of one of your leaders at the expense of another.

English Standard Version
I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

Berean Study Bible
Brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us not to go beyond what is written. Then you will not take pride in one man over another.

Berean Literal Bible
Now I have applied these things, brothers, to myself and Apollos, on account of you, so that in us you may learn, "not beyond what has been written," so that not one of you should be puffed up for one over the other.

New American Standard Bible
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.

New King James Version
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.

King James Bible
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

Christian Standard Bible
Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying: "Nothing beyond what is written." The purpose is that none of you will be arrogant, favoring one person over another.

Contemporary English Version
Friends, I have used Apollos and myself as examples to teach you the meaning of the saying, "Follow the rules." I want you to stop saying one of us is better than the other.

Good News Translation
For your sake, my friends, I have applied all this to Apollos and me, using the two of us as an example, so that you may learn what the saying means, "Observe the proper rules." None of you should be proud of one person and despise another.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the saying: "Nothing beyond what is written." The purpose is that none of you will be inflated with pride in favor of one person over another.

International Standard Version
Brothers, I have applied all this to Apollos and myself for your benefit, so that you may learn from us not to go beyond what the Scriptures say. Then you will stop boasting about one person at the expense of another.

NET Bible
I have applied these things to myself and Apollos because of you, brothers and sisters, so that through us you may learn "not to go beyond what is written," so that none of you will be puffed up in favor of the one against the other.

New Heart English Bible
Now these things, brothers, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to go beyond the things which are written, that none of you be puffed up against one another.

A Faithful Version
Now these things, brethren, I have applied to Apollos and myself for your sakes; that in us you may learn not to think of men beyond what is written, so that no one among you is puffed up on behalf of one of us against the other.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But I have established these things, my brethren, for your sakes concerning my person and that of Apollo, that you may learn by us not to suppose more than whatever is written and that a man should not be lifted up against his fellow man because of anyone.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Brothers and sisters, I have applied this to Apollos and myself for your sake. You should learn from us not to go beyond what is written in Scripture. Then you won't arrogantly place one of us in opposition to the other.

New American Standard 1977
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.

King James 2000 Bible
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that you might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

American King James Version
And these things, brothers, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that you might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

American Standard Version
Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollo, for your sakes; that in us you may learn, that one be not puffed up against the other for another, above that which is written.

Darby Bible Translation
Now these things, brethren, I have transferred, in their application, to myself and Apollos, for your sakes, that ye may learn in us the [lesson of] not [letting your thoughts go] above what is written, that ye may not be puffed up one for [such a] one against another.

English Revised Version
Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.

Webster's Bible Translation
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself, and to Apollos, for your sakes; that ye may learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you on account of one, may be puffed up against another.

Weymouth New Testament
In writing this much, brethren, with special reference to Apollos and myself, I have done so for your sakes, in order to teach you by our example what those words mean, which say, "Nothing beyond what is written!" --so that you may cease to take sides in boastful rivalry, for one teacher against another.

World English Bible
Now these things, brothers, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to think beyond the things which are written, that none of you be puffed up against one another.

Young's Literal Translation
And these things, brethren, I did transfer to myself and to Apollos because of you, that in us ye may learn not to think above that which hath been written, that ye may not be puffed up one for one against the other.

[Elsie]

 

 

 

 "And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes;

that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."
 

King James Bible
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

New King James Version
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think ?? beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.

King James 2000 Bible
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that you might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

American King James Version
And these things, brothers, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that you might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

 

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What do the italicized words in the KJV mean??   https://kjbrc.org/the-use-of-italics-in-the-king-james-bible/

 

 

[Elsie]

(And that is why my primary translation is the KJV, because of its superiority as a very closely examined and long-tested rendering of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and common Greek which the Holy Spirit used to communicate God's Will, Ways, and Work to mankind.)

Really ?

I pity them poor Germans, Spaniards, Chinese, Russians, and all the other languages that are spoken across the world, for not being able to get the true, pure translation rendered in the King's English.

---

I wonder...

...whether that Ethiopian eunuch; reading the writing of Esaias; read it in Hebrew or a Septuagint translation that Philip helped him to understand?

[imardmd1]

Ok; what do you want for Christmas?

Whatever my Heavenly Father chooses, but I believe He's already given it; to wit, the new life in Christ. I don't see how He can improve on perfection!

[imardmd1]

Folks that have played this game for very long soon come to realize that NO translation is going to convey EXACTLY what the original writers intended in every instance.

But some are going to come a LOT closer to the original than others. KJV is the best, so far.

NIV is sly, exemplifying the "dynamic equivalency" species of Scripture substitutes. It both adds to, takes away from, and/or eliminates what the inspired witnesses put into writing, just as Eve did in responding to the subtle Serpent regarding its quiz about what God said.

The NIV interpreters tell you what they want you to hear, not what God wants you to hear. even withholding some of it. You need to get a copy of Chick Salliby's book "If The Foundations Be Destroyed" (click here) and ponder on it.

If you don't already have it, you can get it from Amazon (click here) or from Salliby himself, Word and Prayer Ministries (click here).

You'll like him; he's Arminian in theology, Pentecostal, now I believe.(originally Free Methodist??). I also have his other book "Yet So As By Fire," well written but I don't believe it is as helpful theologically.