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Chinese troops challenge India at multiple locations in eastern Ladakh, standoff continues
The Print ^ | 24 May, 2020 1:36 pm IST | Snehesh Alex Philip

Posted on 05/24/2020 2:18:33 PM PDT by Zhang Fei

The Chinese troops have “come in” about 3 km into Indian territory South East of the Galwan Valley, largely known as Hot Springs area in eastern Ladakh.

Sources in the know told ThePrint that Beijing has also moved in men at the “finger areas” of Pangong Lake while increasing build up on its side of the Line of Actual Control (LAC). The Pangong Lake’s northern bank juts forward like a palm, and the various protrusions are identified as “fingers” to demarcate territory.

Sources said that contrary to inputs of a large Chinese troop presence at Galwan Valley, the build-up is within the Chinese Claim Line (CCL), which is also considered as the LAC at local level.

Sources say that in Galwan, the CCL and the LAC are the same though no maps have been exchanged. They said that the understanding is at local level and Chinese objections to construction activities well within Indian territory was a surprise.

India has done “mirror deployment” on its side, in that it has matched every Chinese move.

However, the Chinese have come in near Patrol Point 14, 15 and the Gogra Post, which is 80 km South East of Galwan Valley, as crow flies, and is between the valley and Pangong Lake.

Sources told ThePrint that the Chinese have not crossed their CCL in these areas but they did accept that these areas are about 3 km within India’s perception of the LAC.

‘No maps in the area’

The patrol points in these areas are named by numbers and Indian troops, a mix of Army and the ITBP personnel, patrol these points from time to time.

“No maps have been exchanged in this area between India and China demarcating what is the LAC,” a source explained. “Whatever understanding that is there is between the

(Excerpt) Read more at theprint.in ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: china; coronavirus; covid19; india; kag; maga; pandemic; pla; sarscov2; trump
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To: Flavious_Maximus

Yes, I would support India over China anyday too, but that doesn’t mean we have to like being called racists because we won’t open our job market to millions of Indian IT guys.


21 posted on 05/24/2020 4:48:49 PM PDT by Amberdawn
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To: crz

[Them two get to fighting and its gonna really be something to watch.

The Gurkhas come to mind. Although they are a branch of the UK military forces, they are also within the Indian forces.]


I have a feeling it won’t be much of a fight. India’s using its beer muscles. The region has historically been remote. The problem for India is that the Chinese have been building infrastructure in the region of the border for decades, with roads and other logistical-type support infrastructure getting stacked up a routine intervals. Whereas India has been twiddling its thumbs. From China’s perspective, the region was remote, but no longer is, thanks to road links built at great cost. From India’s standpoint, the region might as well be finisterra.

India’s problem is somewhat understandable - its moribund governments have stuck it to foreign investors pretty much since India’s independence on the premise that foreigners are evil. Therefore, foreign investors must be squeezed dry of any benefit they derive from investing in India. Given the high risk and the marginal benefit, foreign investors have therefore steered clear of India. This is why India has lagged China for 40 years in economic growth, to the point that China’s output per capita is 5x India’s. How do you keep up, defense-wise, against a country whose economy is 5x yours?

The bottom line is that China will crush India if nobody comes to India’s aid. That’s where we come in. Between bankrolling the Indians and supplying them, I think we can even the odds. All India needs to do is supply the manpower. I think it’s fair that they should do so, given that this is Indian land they’re fighting for.


22 posted on 05/24/2020 4:49:09 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (My dad had a Delta 88. That was a car. It was like driving your living room.)
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To: Zhang Fei

It’s partially true
Years ago postcolonial India wanted nothing
of the West-while not allies of Moscow
per se they tread a socialist path and
were “nonaligned” They also insisted
upon majority ownership of every venture
which disincented the IBMs
We the US threw in our lot with the Pakis,
who kept getting their butts kicked by
India so they went to the CCP for nukes


23 posted on 05/24/2020 5:03:35 PM PDT by Phil DiBasquette
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To: Amberdawn

I’m to the point f not being cared what I’m called. Just reply “So?”


24 posted on 05/24/2020 5:12:23 PM PDT by Bommer (I'am a MAGA-Deplorian! It is the way! It is the only way!)
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To: Zhang Fei

China is increasingly acting like a cornered animal...which it pretty much is.


25 posted on 05/24/2020 5:27:17 PM PDT by RoosterRedux
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To: Zhang Fei

“The bottom line is that China will crush India”

Like the Mongols did?

India will whip China’s ass like the Mongols found out.

The only one in history that managed to handle India would be Alexander the Great. And even he did not take the whole country.


26 posted on 05/24/2020 5:32:07 PM PDT by crz
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To: Amberdawn

If there is one thing I would like to see is our military form a Gurkha unit.

The Brits have been reducing their Gurkha regiments and I would love to see the US Military take on those the Brits set aside.


27 posted on 05/24/2020 5:34:24 PM PDT by crz
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To: shanover

“China is a truly crazy country run by lunatics. I remember Vietnam handed them their ass years ago when they did this. India doesn’t mess around either and has been on a war footing it entire existence plus they have nukes.”

A new GREAT GAME. There is a theory on the Sink Vietnam War that speculates the PLA sent the army in with old thinking generals who were removed after they lost in order to bring in new thinking younger officers.


28 posted on 05/24/2020 5:34:33 PM PDT by bravo whiskey (Never bring a liberal gun law to a gun fight.)
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To: RoosterRedux

China is increasingly acting like a cornered animal...which it pretty much is.

_____________

this is very dangerous. for everyone.


29 posted on 05/24/2020 5:43:04 PM PDT by Chickensoup (Voter ID for 2020!! Leftists totalitarian fascists appear to be planning to eradicate conservatives)
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To: Chickensoup

Very.


30 posted on 05/24/2020 5:51:04 PM PDT by RoosterRedux
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To: crz

[“The bottom line is that China will crush India”

Like the Mongols did?

India will whip China’s ass like the Mongols found out.

The only one in history that managed to handle India would be Alexander the Great. And even he did not take the whole country.]


Neither the Mongols nor Alexander are remotely comparable. Both had recently conquered vast areas of land and were at the limits of their logistics. Those areas needed to be pacified and assimilated into their empires. As it turns out, neither managed to do that effectively. Alexander was probably poisoned, and the Diadochi broke his empire up into multiple states. The Mongols obviously divided up into multiple hordes. Without Genghis Khan to keep them together, the Mongols simply could not function as a coherent unitary power. Whereas today’s China is clearly a unitary state.

China defeated India in 1962, declaring a unitary ceasefire and withdrawing only when the Enterprise stood ready to provide air support to India. The difference today is this - where the disputed areas were more or less equally remote for both countries back then, they are no longer remote for Chinese forces. China has blasted roads and tunnels through Tibet in order to make what was once remote, accessible as a matter of routine. That difference means, more than ever, that Indian victory will depend of American aid, much as the threat of US intervention in 1962 caused the Chinese to beat a hasty retreat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War


31 posted on 05/24/2020 7:34:54 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (My dad had a Delta 88. That was a car. It was like driving your living room.)
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To: Zhang Fei
India in 1962, was hamstrung by Nehru who worshipped China and by the traitorous commie defence minister who put coward generals in charge to avoid military coups. And did not use the air force at all which could have hit the Chinese hard.

And while you are right that the Chinese infra is far better, most Indian troops also have easy connectivity. They are not short of supplies, well acclimatised and well equipped. In 1962, troops from the plains were rushed to the high mountains without warm clothes, shoes and no time to acclimatise. with only .303 rifles and a few MGs. Now there are anti-tank weapons, helicopters and a aggressive nationalist leadership. Its not going to be 1962 again.

32 posted on 05/24/2020 9:18:42 PM PDT by IndianChief
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To: Zhang Fei

No and Vietnam wasnt comparable either.

Your so full of it that its coming out of your ears.

China hasnt the ability to fight a protracted war with any country around the Pacific rim without using their Nuclear weapons at this time.

Because first, they are incapable within their ranks, and second they do not know how to fight a tactical or strategic war.

Now if you want to compare their ability to use unconventional war methods, like what they just did to the USA and the rest of the world? Then you have a point. Since they have no issue with being charged with crimes against humanity...


33 posted on 05/24/2020 9:23:47 PM PDT by crz
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To: crz

[No and Vietnam wasnt comparable either.

Your so full of it that its coming out of your ears.]


What aspect of Vietnam are you talking about?

[China hasnt the ability to fight a protracted war with any country around the Pacific rim without using their Nuclear weapons at this time.

Because first, they are incapable within their ranks, and second they do not know how to fight a tactical or strategic war.]


When you adjust for salary differences, they’ve been spending almost as much on their military as the US for the better part of a decade.

https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2020/03/chinas-defense-spending-larger-it-looks/164060/

If they’re unable to fight any kind of protracted war, then India is likely less so. Re not knowing how to fight wars - they fought the US to a standstill in Korea, and that was when they basically had leg infantry and some artillery pieces. And in North Vietnam, while US forces were engaged in defending the South, the Chinese were present in the hundreds of thousands, providing a credible enough threat of direct intervention that both Nixon and LBJ held back from invading the North to deliver a coup de grace against Communist Vietnam. In 1979, they invaded Vietnam and wiped out Vietnam’s Gold Division in Lang Son, along with 100,000 hostile civilians in the time span of 4 weeks.

http://www.historynet.com/war-of-the-dragons-the-sino-vietnamese-war-1979.htm

The Vietnamese certainly thought they were credible enough a military force to avoid moving more divisions into their area of operations. Since that time, they’ve mounted additional operations that evicted Vietnamese forces from disputed border positions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_conflicts,_1979%E2%80%931991
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_South_Reef_Skirmish

And that was in the initial stages of China’s economic reforms, when the Chinese economy was roughly the same size as the Indian one. Today, that ratio is 5:1.


34 posted on 05/24/2020 10:38:56 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (My dad had a Delta 88. That was a car. It was like driving your living room.)
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To: IndianChief

[India in 1962, was hamstrung by Nehru who worshipped China and by the traitorous commie defence minister who put coward generals in charge to avoid military coups. And did not use the air force at all which could have hit the Chinese hard.

And while you are right that the Chinese infra is far better, most Indian troops also have easy connectivity. They are not short of supplies, well acclimatised and well equipped. In 1962, troops from the plains were rushed to the high mountains without warm clothes, shoes and no time to acclimatise. with only .303 rifles and a few MGs. Now there are anti-tank weapons, helicopters and a aggressive nationalist leadership. Its not going to be 1962 again. ]


At that point, India spent very little on defense. I don’t think it was a question of Nehru’s attitude. China was armed to the teeth because it had taken huge loans from the Soviet Union during and after the Korean War. The consequence of these loans was famine dead in the tens of millions, as Mao prioritized* paying them back by seizing entire harvests. It’s hard to compete with that degree of ruthlessness re allocation of resources by your adversary’s leadership. A leadership that doesn’t care about the welfare of its people will, at least in the short run, be able to squeeze more resources out of them to support a military effort.

The issue for the Indian defense of Ladakh is similar to that in 1962 - the Chinese are better-resourced, this time as a result of 4 decades of rapid economic growth. One estimate is that Chinese military spending is 80% of the US number, when adjusted for salary differences. I don’t think it’s just hot air from Beltway types trying to scrounge up a bigger defense budget by making China out to be a bigger threat than it actually is. If you’ve been monitoring Chinese procurement news, you’ll have noticed that they seem to be doing shakedown cruises of new ship types at what appears to be an interval of every other year. And then there’s the aircraft (manned and unmanned), ground vehicles and so on.

https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2020/03/chinas-defense-spending-larger-it-looks/164060/

* It wasn’t strictly necessary, but Mao made it a point of pride. Vietnam never fully paid back the money it borrowed from the Soviets to acquire the tanks, artillery and MiG’s it used to invade the South. A big chunk of those loans was cancelled in exchange for the abrogation of the Russian lease for Cam Ranh Bay naval base.


35 posted on 05/24/2020 10:58:26 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (My dad had a Delta 88. That was a car. It was like driving your living room.)
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To: Zhang Fei

When do we surrender?


36 posted on 05/24/2020 10:59:56 PM PDT by Chgogal (Wuhan Virus, Chinese Virus, Kung Fu Virus - Wuhan Chinese Kung Fu Virus aka CCP virus.)
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To: Chgogal

[When do we surrender?]


I don’t see the Indians surrendering. In 1962, the threat of the Enterprise’s aircraft wing was sufficient to get the Chinese to back down. I expect, in conjunction with the Indian Air Force, we can at least match the amount of air-dropped ordnance the Chinese can muster in that region. On the ground, however, it’s really up to the Indians to get enough men and equipment up there to hold on to what they have. It’s not going to be as one-sided as it was in 1962, when the Chinese would have been overwhelmed by the Enterprise’s air wing. The Chinese have spent a huge amount of money putting aircraft, air bases and gear to support their men on the ground in that region, not necessarily because of any special focus, but because the Chinese military budget has ballooned along with the economy. 2% of GDP in 1979 vs 2% of GDP in 2019 is a huge jump, given that GDP has gone up 40x.


37 posted on 05/24/2020 11:16:18 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (My dad had a Delta 88. That was a car. It was like driving your living room.)
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To: Zhang Fei
By this time almost all the borders will have been reinforced. China is unlikely to withdraw any time soon, if ever. Currently the govt is playing it quietly but this is a huge slap in the face.Perhaps in retaliation for 2 Cabinet ministers attending the Taiwanese PMs inauguration.

Slowly anti-Chinese sentiment will build up in the local media while the MSM, which depends a lot on ad spends by Chinese companies, will stay muted (sounds familiar?) Social media will again resound to calls for boycotting Chinese goods. Already anti-China sentiments are high because of the Chinese virus. Expect social media to lead the charge against Chinese products. Bollywood is also partially sold to the Chinese, but again there are a few nationalist actors who will make statements and show up those who don't - and those who don't are also from the ROP.

38 posted on 05/25/2020 3:15:08 AM PDT by IndianChief
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To: Zhang Fei
The Chinese have spent a huge amount of money putting aircraft, air bases and gear to support their men on the ground in that region

Chinas problem is that taking off from the Tibetan Plateau would seriously de-rate the performance of its planes in terms of fuel and weapons carried. Taking off beyond the plateau would mean inflight re-fuelling making the tankers targets for long range missiles, in an all out war. India does not have that problem. Also, China is perhaps not able to decide what kind of jammers the IAF will deploy - Russian, Israeli or the local ones. Until the IAF is subdued and Indian missile launchers taken out, there cannot be a full scale assault. Indian troops are usually native to the mountains and naturally acclimatised. Not so the Chinese.

39 posted on 05/25/2020 3:23:51 AM PDT by IndianChief
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To: Zhang Fei

India also has nukes and would not hesitate to use them in China or her proxy Pakistan. Nukes could be flying three ways if a real conflict breaks out.


40 posted on 05/25/2020 9:37:07 AM PDT by Jumper
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