Posted on 06/04/2018 9:25:52 AM PDT by SkyPilot
Participants attending the World Meeting of Families in August can be forgiven their sins or help a relative speed through purgatory.
Pope Francis has granted a "plenary indulgence" for those taking part.
In Catholic doctrine an indulgence frees you from being punished for your previously committed sins or it can be passed on to dead relatives to shorten their time in purgatory.
Even those following events on TV and radio can achieve a partial indulgence as long as they recite the Our Father, the Creed and other devout prayers.
Martin Luther's opposition to the sale of indulgences was one of the main causes of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th Century.
The Sacred Apostolic Penitentiary, the Vatican body dealing with forgiveness of sins, said pilgrims would have to attend confession and Mass, pray for the Pope's intentions and participate in some function during the five-day event.
The use of indulgences in Catholicism is a tradition that goes back to the Crusades in the 11th Century.
(Excerpt) Read more at bbc.com ...
Still wondering if the Vatican has corrected the BBC’s representation of its doctrine placemarker.
Okay, here’s a short little response like I said I’d give last night. I had some other thoughts, but daniel1212, AMPU, and metmom already wrote most of what I had in mind, so I’ll make this one short.
What you’ve written does follow a certain logical progression. I can see why you’d believe it.
But logical does not necessarily mean true. I want to believe what the Apostles preached and taught, not an extrapolation that comes from 700-1100 years later.
This means that when I dig into Scripture, I HAVE to set aside all my preconceptions, even the things I’m absolutely certain are true. I’ve had to change what I’ve believed more than a few times when I saw what was actually written in Scripture instead of what was taught in American popular religion.
From Scripture—again, all the verses, both yours and the ones used ‘against’ you, and all the context that I read—I simply cannot find any support for some interim place that people have to be punished for their sins.
The best I can see is that A: there will be rewards and punishments based on good and evil works for both the saved and unsaved, respectively, and B: That the Lord disciplines, ‘prunes,’ etc. believers like a father disciplines his children. But I never see the concept of that discipline extending beyond life and into some purgatory state in Scripture.
Having said that, thanks much for both the civility and arguing from Scripture on this thread. Threads like these often have a habit of devolving into flame wars.
LOL! Getting the popcorn out!
You manifest careful thinking and a reverence for revealed Truth.
Many precious Truths of the Christian faith came to us from Apostolic teaching/example not recorded directly in the Biblical text. Crucially, one such truth --- an incredibly important one --- is the Canon of Scripture itself. The Bible did not come to us with a Table or Contents or a list of approved books, recorded in the text itself.
The Church --- the community of believers, if you will --- determined this by the late 4th century. The 4th century. Think of that.
My point is that it is historically and logically incoherent to think there was no church before there was an approved text. The approved text (canon) came from the already-existing Apostolic-rooted community, which knew the teachings of the Apostles from preaching, example and discipleship (which is to say, from Capital "T" Tradition) --- even before they all had the same scroll collection.
This establishes my respect for the foundational, historically and logically prior authority of Apostolic Tradition.
This in no way undercuts the written form of the truths as of paramount importance. In fact, it guarantees it.
Thank you again for your sincere good will in Christ our Lord.
Colossians 2:13-15 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
All our sins have been nailed to the cross and taken care of there.
They were atoned for there and all the punishment God deemed necessary to take care of them was dealt out there.
Period, end of story.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Once we die, we no longer have the sin nature and do not sin, so there is no chastisement for sins left. The ones on earth are taken care of at the cross. There is none after death.
We are free and clear to enter God's presence clothed in the righteousness of Christ which He gave us and was imputed to us upon being born again.
“This means that when I dig into Scripture, I HAVE to set aside all my preconceptions, even the things I’m absolutely certain are true. I’ve had to change what I’ve believed more than a few times when I saw what was actually written in Scripture instead of what was taught in American popular religion.”
Exactly what those who seek truth do.
Note: this is *the opposite* of what those arguing for indulgences and pergatory are doing.
Please stop....you do yourself a disservice by continuing to hold out the Table of Contents as a justification for Roman Catholic "Tradition".
I believe I have demonstrated to you that a good part of the NT was already accepted as Scripture by 70 AD.
The OT was already in place.
My point is that it is historically and logically incoherent to think there was no church before there was an approved text. The approved text (canon) came from the already-existing Apostolic-rooted community, which knew the teachings of the Apostles from preaching, example and discipleship (which is to say, from Capital "T" Tradition) --- even before they all had the same scroll collection.
If Roman Catholicism truly believed all of the writings they rely upon that are not found in the NT they had a chance at Trent to incorporate them into the NT Canon.
That Rome did not, nor has not, done so is telling.
I find it interesting that when Paul was writing to the church at Rome he did not include any of this nonsense about purgatory or indulgences. Romans is considered to be one of the two most important books in the NT in terms of theology.
Nor did any of the other NT writers mention, by your own admission, indulgences or purgatory.
Rome has taken one verse from John and has used it to justify introducing a whole bunch of false theology.
Target rich post there.
“Many precious Truths of the Christian faith came to us from Apostolic teaching/example not recorded directly in the Biblical text.
Please post the complete list of Truths the Apostles taught that do not appear in Scripture.
“Crucially, one such truth -— an incredibly important one -— is the Canon of Scripture itself. The Bible did not come to us with a Table or Contents or a list of approved books, recorded in the text itself.”
No. God moved to inspire, preserve and transmit His Word... long before the church existed.
“My point is that it is historically and logically incoherent to think there was no church before there was an approved text. ”
- 2/3 of it was recognized before Christ’s birth. The Apostles also recognized this while alive.
As such, God’s Truth came before the church and before the first believer.
You can’t fulfill scripture unless it existed to fulfill.
The canon of scripture had to be revisited and refined after the 4th century to refine the inspired books.
“Rome has taken one verse from John and has used it to justify introducing a whole bunch of false theology.
When you start with paganism and then try to find it in the Bible, you have to change the meaning.
Works the same for every cult.
It is interesting to note that prior to the Western Schism of 1054, there was no formal doctrine of purgatory, and that the Orthodox Catholic Church still consider purgatory a non-essential doctrine.
According to New Advent, the Catholic Encyclopedia, it states what indulgences are and are not:
If I understand your position correction, I suppose one could look upon this like tithing. Some churches will say the more we tithe the greater our "payment" to God for what He has done. It confers blessings to us. God wants us to give to Him so that He can "bless us".
I would suggest this theology, along with indulgences, is misconstrued in many seeker sensitive churches. God is the author of all things and if we have any funds with which to give God, it is because He has given it to us and laid it upon our hearts to give. We cannot nor should we look upon anything that we do or give as "giving back to God" in payment of anything. We are to rest in what Christ has done for us. When God looks at us, He is really looking at the completed works of Christ. There is no debt to be paid.
What is additionally seen is the growth of the worship of Mary. Roman Catholics claim their dogmas don’t contradict scripture. Yet when examined against scripture we see they indeed do contradict scripture.
The indulgences, the wearing of the scapulars, miraculous medals, the prayers to "Mary", etc,....all show a lack of faith in the complete forgiveness Christ offers us through faith in Him, and only Him.
In the words of Paul, the Roman Catholic who participates in these has abandoned the Gospel for a false gospel not centered on Christ.
This also illustrates the danger of allowing "tradition" to be equated as equal with Scripture. It opens up the door to a whole host of false doctrines as witnessed on these threads.
Thank you. You do not invalidate my point, but in fact strengthen it.
But beyond 100 AD, even if the 27 books had been accepted (based Oral Tradition), local discrepancies sometimes emerged.
For instance, the Muratorian Fragment (about 155 - 200 AD), the first written canon we know of, lists most of the New Testament books. It's missing a few (e.g. Matthew, James, 3 John), and it adds several works which are not inspired: the 'Epistles' to the Laodiceans and to the Alexandrians, the 'Apocalypse of Peter', and 'The Shepherd' (written by Hermas).
In the first four centuries AD many books, such as the seven letters of Ignatius, the Letter of Clement to the Corinthians, and the Didache, were revered by many Christians as inspired; but it was later determined that, even if they were true, edifying and useful, they were not on a level with inspired Scripture.
They were not decreeing or innovating here: they were confirming which books were used liturgically, in response to local churches' inquiries.
It's important to get this clear: hey were not imposing but repeating what they already knew from the earliest Tradition.
Yes! Exactamundo! We certainly agree on this! And it included the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom (Wisdom of Solomon), Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Baruch, and I and II Maccabees.
After the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD, Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakkai moved the Sanhedrin to Yavne (Jamnia) in Galilee. His rabbinical school reorganized and consolidated Pharisaic Judaism. Thus Rabbinical/Talmudic Judaism survived to be the source of practically all Jewish groups to this very day. They were reacting strongly against the Christian movement, and it was they who removed the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, and I and II Maccabees.
After that point you could say there were two OT canons: a Christian OT and an abridged Pharisee version that was approved by the School of Rabbi Ben Zakkai.
The great Bible translator Jerome was faced with this dilemma. At first his Hebrew tutor, a Jewish convert, had influenced him to exclude these seven Sacred Books based on his rabbinical training. Jerome would eventually have to choose between the list approved by Rabbinical councils, or the list approved by Christian councils.
After some hesitation to and fro, he went with the Christian OT canon.
Said Jerome in his letter to Rufinus: “What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches?"
So despite his own tendencies and opinions, he resolved this question the same way that the Popes and Synods did: not by selecting or judging or decreeing on his own, but by confirming that these are the books used by the churches.
Considering that the rabbinical Jews also rejected the entire New Testament, Jerome chose well in the end by accepting the books which were accepted by Christian churches from 70 AD to his own day (late 4th century).
This is the same list, confirmed yet again by Pope Damasus, in his Council of Rome Decree (382), affirming the 73 books of today's unabridged Biblical canon.
That is exactly and precisely false. These prayers and devotions are ONLY for souls who are already forgiven and saved. It has nothing to do with "getting" forgiveness for sins.
I'm surprised you got that wrong. It's basic.
Write all you want about your own beliefs, but please refrain from telling untruths about mine.
And if you want to reject Tradition, you'll have to take that up with St. Paul.
Tagline
Now i see that no matter how your compelled defense of Rome is refuted you just keep posting the same, but this is plainly heretical based on Scripture, as well as being contrary to certain Catholic teachings.
Scripture clearly says all sins are forgiven in conversion by heart-purifying faith:
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (Colossians 2:13)
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:9)
And while believers will be held accountable for how they built the church, suffering the Lord's disapproval and loss of rewards for combustible material at the judgment seat of Christ at His return, as shown, there is not even a hint of souls suffering for sins done before conversion.
Moreover, in Catholic teaching on dogma is that "Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both eternal and temporal." - http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/dogma.php
Thus it is taught that newly baptized souls would go to Heaven directly if they immediately died after baptism, as Augustine reportedly did. - https://forums.catholic.com/t/deathbed-baptism-skip-purgatory/45861/4
And thus it is taught that,
A plenary indulgence means that by the merits of Jesus Christ, the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, the full remission of the temporal punishment due to sacramentally forgiven sins is obtained. The person becomes as if just baptized and would fly immediately to heaven if he died in that instant. - https://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/what.htm
Of course, RC (the EO brand is different) purgatory is not only for making atonement for sin, but for perfection of character, which conversion does not effect. The carnal old man is all too alive after conversion, and thus the RC must endure purifying torments in order to once again become good enough (though he never actually was) to enter Heaven.
Thus rather than acceptance in the Beloved on His account and is made to sit with Him in Heaven, (Eph. 1:6; 2:6) and wherefore the believer has direct spiritual access into the holy of holies by the sinless shed blood of Christ, (Heb. 10:19) and will go to be with the Lord at death or at His coming, (1Thes. 4:17) the RC gospel is effectively salvation by works thru grace, whereby he may attain the impossible standard of actually, practically being good enough to be with God.
The only other alternative, is that with two mostly-unbothered years in prison, Dahmer experienced ALL of his temporal punishment right here on earth. Wouldn't that be presumptious? Wouldn't it be taking things lightly?
As for premise is false, so also is your conclusion. However, since contrite criminal went to be with the Lord that day, RCs imagine that a mere 3 hours of suffering (Christ;s suffering was as a scapegoat, and was more than just physical) not only atoned for all his sins, but also perfected His character. Which is absurd. Perfection of character is not even affected by only physically suffering, but within the trials and temptations to escape this world offers.
For instance, the Muratorian Fragment (about 155 - 200 AD), the first written canon we know of, lists most of the New Testament books. It's missing a few (e.g. Matthew, James, 3 John), and it adds several works which are not inspired: the 'Epistles' to the Laodiceans and to the Alexandrians, the 'Apocalypse of Peter', and 'The Shepherd' (written by Hermas).
In the first four centuries AD many books, such as the seven letters of Ignatius, the Letter of Clement to the Corinthians, and the Didache, were revered by many Christians as inspired; but it was later determined that, even if they were true, edifying and useful, they were not on a level with inspired Scripture.
Yet all of those books from which Rome derives a good deal of its "Sacred Tradition" were not received by the early church.
You prove my point with your lists.
Rome did not formalize its canon until Trent....some 1500 years later. They had the chance to incorporate all of the books Rome relies upon....but they did not.
You write: >>"The OT was already [I think you mean by 70 AD] in place."<<
No that is not what I meant. The OT was in place well prior to 70 AD.
Yes! Exactamundo! We certainly agree on this! And it included the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom (Wisdom of Solomon), Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Baruch, and I and II Maccabees.
No. We are not in agreement on this.
The great Bible translator Jerome was faced with this dilemma. At first his Hebrew tutor, a Jewish convert, had influenced him to exclude these seven Sacred Books based on his rabbinical training. Jerome would eventually have to choose between the list approved by Rabbinical councils, or the list approved by Christian councils.
I offer this from blue letter bible.org regarding the history of the Apocrypha.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_395.cfm
Interestingly, it's one these seven Rabbinically-rejected Sacred Books (2 Maccabees) which most clearly shows and approves the Jewish practice of praying for the dead. If at death all souls proceeded immediately to Heaven or to Hell, prayers for the dead would make no sense: those in Heaven don't need them, and those in Hell can't benefit from them. Thus the existence of a temporary "third place" where souls CAN benefit from our prayers, was already well established on the basis of the OT canon already in place circa 70 AD.
From your post 172.....
I didn't say indulgences as such are unequivocally proved in the Bible; I don't even make that claim for the purificatory (purgatorial) state after death.
You contradict yourself on this issue.
And that is just one more reason why the Apocrypha is rejected by Christianity.
You still don't understand what you wrote in one of your earlier posts [edited for clarity].
I did not comment extensively on what happens to a believer when he entrusts himself to the Lord, so let me expand on that a bit. He becomes a child of God, whom he can trustingly address as "Abba, Father"
The Lord takes away all his sins
and gives him a new life in eternity which is bliss with Him forever. Thanks be to God for this total and glorious gift of heaven.
If the Lord has taken away ALL of their sins, as you write....there is nothing the individual can or has to do.
Do you understand that? I'm being serious here.
If the Lord has taken away ALL of your sins, there is no need for purgatory or indulgences or scapulars or medals.
And just what are those traditions that were taught by Paul that were not included in Scripture?
How do you know for sure that Paul taught them and not someone else?
How do you know for sure that they were passed down faithfully without corruption?
Why were they never written down in the first place if they were so important?
Please provide links for verification purposes.
For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us. As a father shows compassion to his children, so the Lord shows compassion to those who fear him. For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust.
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