A monument to SC’s black Confederate soldiers? None fought for the South, experts say

The State ^ | 12/30/18 | Jeff Wilkinson

[DoodleDawg]

LOL. Comparing Sherman to Lee. Lee had honor, Sherman had none.

Sherman won, Lee didn't.

[Mamzelle]

I didn’t know that. Cherokees regarded northerners as invaders, and a few Cherokees owned slaves. How and where did they fight for the Union?

[WayneS]

Oops.

I’m sorry I misunderstood your post.

[DoodleDawg]

I didn’t know that. Cherokees regarded northerners as invaders, and a few Cherokees owned slaves. How and where did they fight for the Union?

The Cherokee, like the rest of the country, were split by the Civil War. Different factions fought for the North and the South, and the factions were divided by those who supported the Treaty of New Echota that moved the Cherokee to Indian territory and those who did not. Stand Waite supported the treaty and his supporters fought for the Confederacy. John Ross did not, and his supporters fought for the Union.

Link

[BroJoeK]

M Kehoe: "You have never seen Civil war photos of Black Confederate units?
Unfortunately, I can’t remember any urls or names of books and other publications of the era at the moment, but maybe someone will see this post and accommodate us."

I know exactly what you're talking about.
There was a Civil War black Confederate regiment in New Orleans -- The First Louisiana Native Guard (CSA).
It formed on April 22, 1861 about 1,500 free-blacks strong, in response to the Louisiana governor's call for troops.
This was from a New Orleans free-black population estimated around 10,000.
First Louisiana was commanded by three white officers, with company commanders appointed from among the troops.

The First Louisiana fought no battles, provided no other service to the Confederacy.

In January 1862 the Louisiana Legislature effectively disbanded the First Louisiana by outlawing units other than "...free white males capable of bearing arms… ”.[5]
The regiment was reinstated in April 1861 to oppose Union Admiral Farragut's arrival but was permanently disbanded on May 24, 1861 by Confederate authorities.

With New Orleans under Union control, it formed three colored regiments, beginning in September 1862 -- the First, Second and Third Louisiana Native Guards (USA).
Some of the troops in these units had served originally in the First Louisiana Native Guards (CSA).

As for photos, there are a number purported to be of the CSA 1st Louisiana Native Guard which on closer look turn out to be something else, this one for example:

I think the story on this photo is it's a Union recruiting photo taken in Philadelphia, but doctored sometimes passes as Confederate.

[BroJoeK]

ml/nj: "...all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people." [Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1791 letter]"

Right, so does that mean you support or oppose the 13th, 14th & 15th amendments?
Because when you're talking about "Lincoln's tyranny" which somehow "destroyed the Constitution", that's what you mean, right?

You wish to see those amendments abolished, right?

[Vigilanteman]

Mostly, but not entirely. Look through Tennessee records in particular and you will find no small number assigned to guard and picket duty.

Bottom line is that not every black in the south craved freedom. No small number actually liked the cradle to grave security which the institution of slavery offered and were totally confused as to where to go and what to do when the war abolished it.

For a modern day reference, just look at the sheer number who vote Democrat when it is clear the policy of the party of slavery locks them into crappy schools, housing and neighborhoods in return for their votes and government freebies.

[central_va]

Most ex-slaves remained loyal to their former owners and shared cropped to help pay the carpet bagger taxes.

[central_va]

Their just aren’t that many pictures of any confederate units because they cost too much money. Only the affluent Yankees could afford such luxuries as unit photos. Even then, there just are many of them either. Only officers, and a few infantry, could afford to have their pictures taken.

[central_va]

Since secession was un-Constitutional

Really? Could you please post the section of the USC that talk about that? Thanks.

PS: The USC is silent on the subject of secession.....

[central_va]

Their = There

[Vigilanteman]

Correct. The most economically successful plantations discovered early on that treating their slaves well led to higher productivity-- it is NOT rocket science.

Even Abigail Adams observed when the landscaping was being finished on the first white house that a couple of sturdy New England farmhands could have accomplished in a day what it took a crew of a dozen Negro slaves to do. Abigail was no racist. She was an ardent abolitionist even in those days and correctly observed the stupefying nature of the institution of slavery . . . most would work only the minimum necessary to avoid the lash.

Not so different than what happened in Soviet and Red Chinese agriculture when farming was collectivized. Once even partial private ownership of small plots of land was introduced in the post-Stalin and post-Mao eras, food production soared.

[ml/nj]

Right, so does that mean you support or oppose the 13th, 14th & 15th amendments?
Because when you're talking about "Lincoln's tyranny" which somehow "destroyed the Constitution", that's what you mean, right?

No problem with 13 or 15.

I do have a problem with 14 as it has come to be interpreted. I believe Stephen Halbrook's premise in his That Every Man Be Armed. While this book is primarily about the second Amendment, Halbrook asserts that the original intention of the 14th was to ensure that freed slaves would not be denied the right to bear arms.

But it has morphed way beyond that, and of this I do not approve. The best book about this morphing is Raoul Berger's Government by Judiciary. I don't think Berger says it but it is my opinion that the majority of morphing waiting until all of the framers of the 14th Amendment had passed on. Before that notions like incorporation would have been ridiculed by those who understood their own intent.

Another good book that isn't about the 14th Amendment per se is Democracy By Decree by liberals Sandler and Schoenbrod who recognize how our intended Constitutional form of government has been destroyed. (But they don't mention "Honest Abe" if that would make you feel any better.)

The other problem that I have with the 14th Amendment is that it was never legally ratified. I posted an article about this here long ago. That thread is one that is no longer available (due to law suit settlement that FR agreed to), but fortunately the folks at constitution.org picked up the text I posted. I Also pointed out in that now deleted thread that I initially became aware of the problems with the ratification of the 14th from an old World Almanac I have. There where they give the text of the amendments, each has a bit of italicized text following which gives the date it was proposed and the date it was ratified. The italicized stuff following the 14th was almost as long as the amendment text itself. This may not bother you but it bothers me.

ML/NJ

[BroJoeK]

ml/nj: "I do have a problem with 14 as it has come to be interpreted."

Sadly, the 14th is far from the only piece of the Constitution which has been interpreted beyond all legitimate connection to their original intents.
I don't justify modern interpretations, but I do think the original intent was legitimate and therefore Republican Lincoln cannot be blamed for what modern Progressive Democrats had done.

You disagree?

[Bull Snipe]

Supreme Court Decision Texas V. White 1869

[central_va]

So there is nothing in the USC about secession. So quit saying it is unconstitutional because it’s a lie.

[Bull Snipe]

you are correct. The original photo has the Union officer in the picture. The sky blue U.S. Army overcoats could pass for gray in the photos of the day. If you notice, the men in the picture are holding Enfield .577 rifle muskets.
At that time most LA troops were packing .69 cal. smooth bore muskets. There is not way in the world that the State would issue anything like the latest in infantry weapons to a black outfit.

[Bull Snipe]

The United Supreme Court of the United States found secession to be unconstitutional. Deny it if you like but it is not a lie.

[ml/nj]

I'm not sure what your thing is with Lincoln. He had nothing to do with the 14th Amendment, save creating the atmosphere in which it was or wasn't ratified.

Apart from that Lincoln was a complete scumbag. He abandoned his family on a train he believed would be attacked by his opponents. This is known as the "Baltimore Plot." It is unusual to find it indexed in any Lincoln biography unless it's one of Mary Todd. (She was none-too-pleased.) Of course, she had already had her troubles with "Honest Abe" when he stood her up on their original wedding date. As President he arrogated power to himself completely inconsistent with the Constitution. And such a nice man, while proclaiming, "With malice toward none, and charity for all." he was ordering his generals to burn widows and orphans out of their homes.

You see I went beyond the BS I was taught at my Long Island, NY, high school and read some history. It isn't pretty.

ML/NJ

[Bull Snipe]

show me a copy of an order signed by Abraham Lincoln to any of the Generals of the Union ordering them to burn widows and orphans out of their homes