Defense of the F-35

different links | 4/5/2017 | LS

[LS]

Yesterday there was a thread discussing, somewhat critically, the F-35. I have heard good things about the plane from the fighter jock community, but these guys were older pilots, none of whom flew the F-35. I personally know almost nothing about it, and I asked them for info. They sent the following comments and links which seem pretty positive:

http://whythef35.blogspot.com/2012/05/comparing-f-16s-development-with-f-35.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2016/03/28/solid-progress-f-35-fighter-pentagons-biggest-program-is-moving-forward-fast/#1d07166d4b57

From a pilot, who has not flown the F-35:

The F-35 is very complicated—3 different variants (USAF, USN, USMC), millions of lines of code, stealth, new technology, etc.;

Building a new fighter is ALWAYS difficult, but given the notes above this one is probably even more so than most; There are many detractors of this program, and they will speak poorly of it no matter what;

As of 30 Jan 2017 there have been 80,000 flight hours logged, without any major crisis that I can recall;

I have no doubt that all of the versions flying now will be vastly improved a year, two years, 10 years from now.

[Jeff Chandler]

The F-35’s performance is inferior to the F-22’s, but they are designed for different purposes.

As I understand it, the F-35 can act as a force multiplier, using its advanced avionics to enable F-18s, F-16, and F-22s to operate under conditions which might otherwise be far more deadly for them. It offers a kind of protective electronic blanket.

At least that’s what I read.

[LoneStarGI]

I think you hit on part of it. Both the Seawolf and F-22 were developed as ‘counters’ to a presumed threat coming from other nations (mostly Russia and China). However when those threats failed to materialize, the high costs of production and maintenance meant the programs were stopped in favor of newer systems (Virginia-class and F-35).

[Terry L Smith]

IIRC, the last “multi-service” aircraft, was the McDonnell-Douglas F-4(x) series aircraft. The train of thought was, at THAT time, that the ‘dogfight’ was a thing of the past, and that all aerial combat would take place at distance, with the use of missiles, only. The skies of Vietnam proved that to be a fallacy.

So, in the new world of ‘stealth’, all else goes to the wayside, again, until the next time our intrepid airmen have to ‘dogfight’, to save their butts.

[buckalfa]

When you try to please everybody, you please nobody.

[fatman6502002]

Not only is the F-35 itself an engineering marvel, but I hear the helmet by itself is another incredible feat of engineering. I heard it can do everything an Apache attack helicopter helmet can do, except a lot more. Plus the cameras arranged around the airframe allow the pilot to “see” right through the aircraft, so if the pilot ever does find himself in a close in dogfight he will never lose sight of the enemy due to blind spots, and that is a huge advantage in a dogfight. There’s an old fighter pilot warning to inexperienced pilots; lose the sight lose the fight. It will be impossible to lose the sight line to an enemy aircraft for an F-35 pilot. Personally I cannot believe so many people still believe the F-35 is a dog of an aircraft, most of them must be low information kinds of people because all the info one needs to see that this aircraft is a huge game changer for the US is right out there for all to see, one just needs to look.

[Vermont Lt]

Where are you going to fight your war? And against whom?

That is way above my pay grade.

[BroJoeK]

Some basic data:

• 1996 contracts signed for F-35s
• 2006 first flight by F-35s
• 2015 first operational deployment (USMC)
• $100+ million each, unit cost.
• 200+ total F-35A & Bs produced so far
• 3,000+ total expected production through 2037.

Personally, I don't care what the cost overruns or delays are, nearly as much as: does it do what it needs to do to win?
If so it's cheap, if not it's a waste of money.

You mentioned the V-22 Osprey, which started in 1981 and is still in limited operational use after nine crashes with 39 fatalities.
So, as always with technology: the leading edge is the bleeding edge.

[butlerweave]

Make sure you paint F35 on the side and while the enemy pilot is laughing you move close and shoot him down

[PapaBear3625]

With it’s stealth and long-range, air-to-air missile capability, the advantage of the F-22 is that it can stand off and take out enemy aircraft before it is “seen.”

The problem comes when an administration orders positive visual ID of the target before firing.

[fatman6502002]

The A2A missiles of the Vietnam Era are not even comparable in capabilities or reliability. Todays AMRAMM hits 95% of the time and the AIM-9X does too. Also modern A2A radar guided missiles are fire and forget, the pilot fires it and them missile hunts down the target with its own radar. In the Vietnam Era a pilot would have to fire the missile then keep the nose of his aircraft pointed at the target so the missile could home in on the reflected radar returns.

[diogenes ghost]

Well, LS, I have been an opponent of F-35 since it's inception. Just the concept of three very different variants in order to accomplish highly divergent tasks is incredibly difficult to start with. Then to ask them all to be the best in the world at each task, do it efficiently, and save the taxpayers money at the same time?? Do you still believe in Santa?

Last month the Project On Gov't Oversight, POGO, released a scathing report that will convince you that this aircraft will cripple our capabilities against peer and near-peer adversaries for literally generations.

I gotta admit to being html incapable, so I'll just show how to get it via Google. It's a very long read, but VERY well done, comprehensive, and from a group that cares about our gov't and how it serves us.

Google.......F-35 Continues to Stumble, the fond it on POGO.org

For everyone that has any interest in the F-35, or military procurement in general, it is a must read.

[riverdawg]

“The problem comes when an administration orders positive visual ID of the target before firing.”

Yes, that presumably was the “rules of engagement” reference in an earlier post in this thread.

[Terry L Smith]

Dear fatman,

It seems that you have searched wikipedia for your missile technology moment, MAYBE.

re: “In the Vietnam Era a pilot would have to fire the missile then keep the nose of his aircraft pointed at the target so the missile could home in on the reflected radar returns.”

As a Viet vet, and a Phantom Fixer, you are misled. The ‘radar dish’ was NOT transfixed to a ‘zero/zero’ permanency.
I suggest you do research on the Janes’ site, typing:
APQ-109; APQ-120, in the search bar.

[Little Ray]

I don’t think we’re going fight a first line opponent for a while. At least I think that Trump has more sense than that.

So, optimize for killing off cockroaches instead of tanks.

And when we do get around to fighting a first line opponent, we get air supremacy with the F-22 and then the armored cropdusters can operate safely.

Oh. Wait. We shut down the production lines for F-22s.

Well, I guess we need to get the UCAV up and running anyway.

[piytar]

The F22 is generally acknowledged as the best air superiority fighter in the world. By a bunch. (Only people who disagree are people trying to sell their own fighters.)

[piytar]

It can also dogfight. Is very good at it.

[PIF]

Ok you guys have read the specs, read pilot reports, but one thing among many many that will and cannot change is the plane’s limited range. It is a tanker queen; shoot down the tanker (Chinese strategy) and the plane is useless.

Station it on the ground close enough to the front lines to be effective and it is within S-500 range (Russian strategy) and would be shot down as soon as it becomes airborne.

Fix the gun so it can shoot, but it will run out of rounds after a few bursts; fix the software so it actually works, and you might be on to something as longs as the plane remains on the ground; fix the naval version so it does not nearly kill the pilots on take off only to run out of fuel when the tankers go away; fix the radar so it actually can be turned on, and wait to be hit by an S-500.

Find some way to surpass all those obstacles and get shot down by Russian BVR missiles; get around that and you get to drop the one or two bombs the plane is capable of carrying before running the same gauntlet to return to base.

These are problems are not even being considered to be fixed as the fixes would require either redesigning the POS from the ground up or making it far too expensive - exceeding costs before the ‘Trump Effect’ occurred.

Stop cheer leading for an extremely poor design (even for a committee); push for a modernized version of the F-22, or F-22B(omber).

[Stand Watch Listen]

"F-35 Continues to Stumble"
http://www.pogo.org/straus/issues/weapons/2017/f35-continues-to-stumble.html

[elteemike]

You’ve pointed out the pertinent issue...

Given comparable weapon systems to an adversary, our military having superior initiative, training and fighting spirit will prevail, unless the civilian “leadership” and their wholly-owned Pentagon toadies hamstring them with ridiculous “Rules of Engagement”...

I like Gen. Patton’s “Rules of Engagement”...Close with the enemy and destroy him and his will to resist by any means possible...

[Seruzawa]

If they would call the F35 an A35 the perception of the plane would change.