Posted on 03/21/2017 8:37:02 AM PDT by Lorianne
The EU and US urge "strongman" Khalifa Haftar to return oil ports to the "Libyan people". We're glad that Washington has a sense of humor ___
Libya was the richest, most developed, most educated country in North Africa. It was a model of much-needed stability in the region, with a government that was considerably less terrible than NATO's numerous medieval dictator-allies.
Before the "revolution", the Libyan government used oil revenues to subsidize a whole range of social benefits for its citizens.
And now that Libya is a moon crater, the U.S. and its European poodles are whining about "returning oil ports to the Libyan people". Is this a new standup routine that Washington has been practicing?
EU states and the US have urged a Russia-backed Libyan warlord to hand back oil ports, amid warnings that Russia was trying to do in Libya what it did in Syria.
The British, French, Italian, and US ambassadors to Libya said oil facilities “belong to the Libyan people and must remain under the exclusive control” of central authorities.
This statement is of course referring to Khalifa Haftar and his successful attack against "Islamist militias" (fanatics affiliated with al-Qaeda) who seized Sidra and Ras Lanuf earlier this month.
In other words: The U.S. and Europe are now having a panic attack because Islamic extremists no longer control two key oil ports in Libya. What a strange thing to be upset about.
And the notion that Washington cares at all about what "belongs" to the Libyan people is laughable. If you measure the scale of destruction in terms of where Libya was before NATO's "humanitarian intervention", and where it is now, it's simply criminal. Before Obama started dropping "right to protect" bombs, this is what the U.N. said about Libya:
In 2010, Libya ranked 53rd in the UN’s Human Development Index among 163 countries. With life expectancy at birth at 74.5 years, an 88.4% adult literacy rate and a gross enrolment ratio of 94.1%, Libya was classified as a high human development country among the Middle East and North Africa region.
Libyans once enjoyed a higher standard of living than 2/3 of the planet. NATO fixed that little problem — and now Washington is crying crocodile tears about oil facilities that "belong" to the Libyan people. The entire country belongs to the Libyan people. Washington destroyed it, but for some reason it's only concerned about the oil ports. How odd.
Believe me, they don’t bother me in the least, just do not go putting words into my mouth that I did not utter. 8>)
Exactly right!
Oh my goodness, those were all my words, not trying to have them be your words...
There is a little club of them.
All this article is about is convincing pro-putin people that he should send his forces into Libya.
Cheer up. They haven't.
Who is a nearest-by to Europe oil/energy supplier -- that is not Russia (or other Euro-weenie State)?
There you go. This is what it's all about.
That doesn't make the Europeans who long have lusted for control of Libyan oil into being saints, or make 0bozo into anything approaching "good".
To put it in a different way;
Just because 0bozo made an horrific mess of things does not equal Vladi and Co. are righteous (except in their own eyes).
Which part of you is real, Mr. Rooskie forum-troll?
Right now Libya has three bodies vying for control of the government and infrastructure.
There is the NGA in Tripoli, another body in Tripoli, and still another in Eastern Libya.
Forces from two groups clash. There are also gangs asserting power. There are about 500,000 displaced people in Lybia and the populace is having problems obtaining healthcare, fuel, and power.
People are being abducted, shot, and killed by waring faction and gangs.
So you tell me. Does this sound better than the stable situation under Khadaffi? Yes or no?
Obviously it isn’t better.
I’m linking you to Human Rights Watch. I’m not a big fan, but this report seems to jive with other articles I ran into on the way to it.
I asked you a number of times to provide any information whatsoever to refute the information presented in the main thread article.
You refused!
Instead you tried to denigrate me as a Putin lacky, some sort of fan of Pravda under the U.S.S.R., and a fan of Khadaffy. You also tossed in Hussein of Iraq and Assad of Syria for good measure.
You don’t have any idea if this article us true or not, if Putin actually had anything to do with it or not, or the full extent of how badly Obama, McCain, Clinton, Graham, and Rubio screwed the place up.
While you sit there defending those five people by proxy, that hate your guts and what Conservatives stand for, when we know for a fact they destabilized the nation, made things undeniably worse for the people there, I remain curious why you defend them so ardently.
You have provided not one single shred of evidence to back you position.
Please go defend those five people to someone else. You’re wasting my time, and you’re seriously not doing yourself any favors.
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/libya
But where were was putin in recent months when the US was taking out ISIS in Misrata? Now, like the jackal he is, he rushes in to save the day.
The dictators, like Kaddafy, have made peaceful change and transition impossible. And any social spending now championed by the article is similar to the propaganda used to glorify Castro.
Also, keep in mind that Kaddafy supplied and trained various terrorist for years to attack US and European interests. His country, like Iraq and Syria, became fertile breeding grounds for Islamist terrorists. Was he better than the chaos that exists right now? Yes, but only because, like Assad he made the choice him, ISIS, or chaos.
I know you blame everyone else for ISIS but ISIS, and McCain in your mind is more responsible for them than Assad, Saddam, of Kaddafy. That theme is contrary to what I've seen in that part of the world.
ISIS are the ones responsible for their actions and the dictators in that region made them who they are.
If the Libyans want to fall under putin's empire, that's their problem, but how will we know this? Will there be a vote. I suspect they won't ever agree to it and that his support for another non-democratic strongman will lead to only more chaos and civil wars, in which we can only hope that many Russians are killed trying to build putin's empire.
I do accept the differences we have on these issues as a difference in how we view the rights of humans. I believe God didn't just give the inalienable right of freedom to Americans. It's a right he desires for all humans. I could accept a dictator, like Franco or the ones in Latin America, who assume power to transition a nation back to order, freedom, and a justice before the law. But these pro-Russian dictators have not been interested in transitioning. Assad is the son of a dicatator, and no doubt if he survives his son will rule Syria.
I believe many posters on this subject are being short sighted and expedient in dismissing freedom for others and making a faustian pact with anyone who will run a police state that protects the West. That model cannot be sustained since the people of those countries are not stakeholders in the fate of their nation. They too will want a say in their government. Destroying ISIS and al Qaeda are good things. Propping up more strongmen who desire, like putin, to be president for life, makes no sense.
By the way, the US South was much poorer for a long time after slavery and the US Civil War. Should the damn Yankees allowed the Union to bust and slavery to prevail so that the South would experience no disorder?
"The U.S. and Europe are now having a panic attack because Islamic extremists no longer control two key oil ports in Libya." [It's not even on the American radar for most Americans, so that's fake. I don't know anyone having a panic attack. You may.]
"And the notion that Washington cares at all about what "belongs" to the Libyan people is laughable." [Keep in mind this is KGB putin's propaganda organ talking about the present president of the United States, right? Do you accept their critique of POTUS?]
"The entire country belongs to the Libyan people." [This from the putinista press? They're constantly indifferent to their own people's short life span and to the idea of Russians or others owning their own fate under law. But you buy into this poppycock?]
You believe what you want. This article is pro-putin MISO.
"The U.S. and Europe are now having a panic attack because Islamic extremists no longer control two key oil ports in Libya." [It's not even on the American radar for most Americans, so that's fake. I don't know anyone having a panic attack. You may.]
"And the notion that Washington cares at all about what "belongs" to the Libyan people is laughable." [Keep in mind this is KGB putin's propaganda organ talking about the present president of the United States, right? Do you accept their critique of POTUS?]
"The entire country belongs to the Libyan people." [This from the putinista press? They're constantly indifferent to their own people's short life span and to the idea of Russians or others owning their own fate under law. But you buy into this poppycock? putin doesn't respect the believe Poland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania belong to those people. Why now does his state controlled press care about Libyans owning their country?]
You believe what you want. This article is pure pro-putin MISO.
>[It’s not even on the American radar for most Americans, so that’s fake. I don’t know anyone having a panic attack. You may.]
You don’t travel in the right circles to know jack about how the world works. The American elites were making a killing buying oil from islamists in Libya at cut rate prices.
The American empire is fundamentally socialism for our elites. The public funds the wars and destabilization while they swoop in and collect the profits from natrual resources. Privite profits and public losses is an awful way to run an empire.
I despise neo-cons because they’re either too stupid to understanding their being scammed or they’re in on the deal and making bank like McCain, Hillery, etc.
Thank you for the deep thoughts from the Kremlin.
>Thank you for the deep thoughts from the Kremlin.
No thank you for your support of Hillary Clinton and John McCain.
Oh, you support putin and McCain. You are an odd duck. Is that in the Kremlin talking points for internet, comrade?
Do you know for certain that this was not the case? That he didn't use the oil revenues in that fashion? If it were the American press saying that then I absolutely would not believe it. That, by the way, is not my fault. It is the fault of the press themselves.
But honestly I do not know what actually occurred there, nor did I really care. One thing I do know for certain is that Libya was not giving this country any problems to deal with. In fact, Gaddafi had opened his country up for weapons inspections for his country's WMD program in 2003, and for this our government rewarded him by funding "freedom fighters" to depose him. He was eventually killed savagely by them, as I'm sure leftists & Democrats would love to do to Donald Trump. Who knows, perhaps you too harbor those desires. Then a short period later they killed our Ambassador, two military support personnel, and a foreign service information management officer.
While I'll agree with you that the average American, and I include Trump in that, are indeed not panicked by that. However, the globalist supporters and leftists are probably upset by it, and I include McCain & Graham in that group.
You seem to forget that there are two Americas.
One that supports America and recognizes her exceptionalism, and one that hates America and wants to see her fundamentally changed from her original conception, instead of honestly working towards that original conception.
While you seem to think I forget what Russia has been historically, you seem to be oblivious as to what America has been for the last 8 years. Not a red cent better than Russia at its worst, because Obama was emulating Russia in many ways. Ignoring the Constitution, subverting Congress, forcing morality (or lack of) on the population, private property rights, and a host of other things.
You definitely have to go by history, but that history cannot be limited to picking & choosing only certain aspects. It has to be inclusive of current, as well as, past history.
If Libya does not belong to the Libyan people, them who exactly does it belong to? Just because Putin may think other countries are his, they in fact are not anymore nor have they ever been under his rule. The whole Ukraine situation resulted from a weak President in our country, but it also was the result of Ukraine refusing to continue the lease to the Russians of the submarine ports in the Crimea. Akin to Cuba refusing to allow Guantanamo to remain in U.S control. I doubt we would stand for it, except for someone like Obama in control. Remember we have many nations aligned against Russia in the form of NATO. You think that this does not give Russia & Russian citizens cause for pause and a desire to protect themselves?
Well thank you for allowing me the freedom to exercise my brain as I see fit. I see no positives in restarting the Cold War with Russia. It was a terrible drain on American treasures, both monetarily and human wise. I harbor no delusions about either Russia or Putin. But the wise man keeps his friends close and his enemies closer, and only starts something when it becomes absolutely necessary. Let's remove sanctions and see if they move to a move Democratic position. If they do not then sanctions can always be reestablished, and rather quickly I might add.
Notice I didn’t say honest I said more honest. At least every no and then, when it behooves them to do so they tell the truth. However, our press has not provided the truth for decades now. That is what I was basing my statement on, and yes it still saddens me very greatly.
I stopped when you made the dumb comment that I might want to kill Trump. Grow up.
Grow up? Follow you own advice.
Furthermore, you are using that as an excuse because you cannot refute a single thing I said, nor can you prove your claim that Gaddafi didn’t use the oil reserves as was stated in the article. Instead you merely gave your opinion. Your opinion may even be correct, but I will not accept it on face value. I need proof that those claims made in the article are fake. For me it is irrelevant, because Libya is of little concern for me. What is of concern for me is my tax money being used to affect regime change in a country that I had little concern for in the first place, that was not adversely affecting our country.
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