Are we be better off with the thousands of factories shut down and millions of jobs lost?

Ted Cruz was on with Jeff Kuhner re: free trade ^

[Jim Robinson]

Are we be better off today with the thousands of U.S. factories that have shut down and millions of American jobs lost and the trillions in accumulated debt that we've run up in the last couple decades of free trade?

And, of course, this is due to many factors including such things as:

Big government

Regulations

High taxes

Unions driving up costs

Cheap labor overseas

Fewer regulations overseas

Lower taxes overseas

Trade deficits

etc.,

And doubly exasperated by poor trade deals?

Or is this all a myth?

Are we better off with cheaper foreign (cheap) goods, fewer U.S. factories, fewer U.S. jobs, higher unemployment and welfare, higher taxes and higher national debt?

Will this spiral out of control until we lose our country?

Is ushering in free trade before (or without) reducing our own costs the equivalent of national suicide?

[Will88]

Kudos to the Freeper who pointed out several months ago that U.S. manufacturing employment would have been declining for years even if the U.S. was the only country in the world, and there was no such thing as "foreign trade."

I doubt anyone has provided reliable data to support that. People make such statements, but the number of manufacturing products sold and used in the US and elsewhere is much higher now than decades ago.

Nobody was producing computers and tablets and cell phones and walkmans and a large number of other products in most every home today that didn't even exist forty or fifty years ago. And things like the number of vehicles and TVs owned by the average family is signicantly higher now than decades ago.

Here is the stat we need:

How many manufacturing jobs were required to produce all the manufactured products sold in the US in 2015, and say, several different years going back to the 1960s?

I don't believe for a second that it takes fewer manufacturing jobs to produce all the manufactured products sold now compared to any prior decade.

[Will88]

And, what is more, it all can be fixed.

Either we improve our economy and trade policies and create jobs to move people off welfare programs, or it won't be fixed. And we have to have jobs for the left side of the Bell curve. We've heard the pie-in-the-sky about education and retraining for decades and that hasn't fixed it and it won't fix it.

We need jobs for all skill levels or be prepared for a bigger and bigger redistributionist central government because that's what people will vote for until it all collapses of its own weight.

[eyedigress]

Jim, I was a Cruz supporter but watching the GOPe wagons circle was enough for me.

Smoke em’ if you got em’.

[BlatherNaut]

It’s not clear to me that unemployment is at a crisis level. I think we can perhaps all agree that if a factory closes down for any reason, but everyone working there is able to quickly find jobs that are equivalent elsewhere, then nothing bad happened for the economy.

Well, by your definition, unemployment where I live is at "crisis level". The cost of living is up and businesses are closing. People are literally driving around picking up trash and beer bottles to make a few bucks. Elderly people are forced to take jobs that were typically filled by kids (e.g. paper route, grocery baggers, etc.) and kids can't find employment to pay education expenses. Small businesses are going under. The middle class is in a downward spiral. Jobs are disappearing. The American dream is dying.

[Jim Robinson]

Social Security is our greatest problem? I thought is was paid for by the workers?

Oops, now I see what you mean. As our factories and jobs are supplanted and exported by free trade, we no longer have a sufficient number of workers. But we get lots of cheap goods.

[Lurker]

No, you’re not.

L

[RginTN]

if trump were serious he would be willing to sacrifice a bit of profit to make all his products in America. Heck trump could be innovative and start businesses that make his products in the US. Many states would make him deals where that would benefit them both.

I know of a designer whose apparel is shown on QVC when her clothes are made in the US she mentions it because she knows customers like that. It will only benefit trump to stop outsourcing his products.

[irishMN]

But isn't 310 million people a big enough market for American manufacturing... When I walk into a 'dollar' store and look at all that Chinese junk they sell, and realize all that junk used to be made in America by Americans...And it wasn't junk... In my view all of the 3rd world countries, China, India, Indonesia and Vietnam included should have been left out of the World Trade Organization until they reached a balance with us and our European trading partners...They should have their own Trade Organization where they can play on their level playing field...

I have a 1950's refrigerator, so does my brother. Despite claims to the contrary they use less energy than any newer model because they don't have a fan that continuously runs to eliminate condensation. Sure you have to defrost them once every 6 months but for a 60 year old fridge, now that's American manufacturing!

[irishMN]

The principle of free trade is absolutely solid.

Our low or non-existent tariffs are the problem. When other countries sell steel for example at below cost to shutter our mines it lays off thousands of US workers. It's not about technological advancement it's about shuttering our businesses. Plain and simple.

You can't compare US states to competition between countries. All US state citizens/corporations pay federal taxes and are subject to the same rates, more or less. Other countries that sell items cheaper than it costs to produce with little tariff on imported goods simply to eliminate the competition because once eliminated are vastly different scenarios.

I agree with your viewpoints on education, welfare, excessive government spending and the abuse of SSI disability.

[mosesdapoet]

The last private industrialist who held the office of President was Herbert Hoover. The great engineer who gained his introduction into goverment service by serving under Wilson’s heading european food distribution program he set up after WWI. I believe both the Hoover Dam and the Goldengate bridge were instituted during his administration. But so were protectionest tariffs which Trump advocates. Even GWB tried to protect our steel manufacturing base employing the same tactic and was forced to recind those protectionist tariffs.

What we should be doing is protecting our intellectual base and refuse to permit goods and services developed here through the patent/copyright process which are superior which can be internationally in demand stay here to be manufactured here.That includes drugs, electronics, specialised manufactured products. In addition we have basic comodities iron, coal, oil gas, we could be selling halted by government EPA policies.

About Mr Trump. The conduct of this election as evidenced by those so called debates which were reduced to cage matches. Where discourse on the direction of where and how these candidates would lead US is completely absent .In fact if one asks Trump supporters exactly what Trump will do ? They could not tell you . Because he has not done so in any specific way .His use of this rhetoric gets any discourse on the issues to be avoided,and from even being approached. It is designed to lead into confrontation and get his name out there which it does unfortunately .

[Eisenhower Republican]

Looks to me like we should solve the high cost problems before giving all our jobs and business away.

Harrumph!

[Jim Robinson]

You might want to peruse his website for some specifics.

[lewislynn]

Why is this the case?

Government subsidies and monetary manipulation.

Loaded containers arrive here and return empty. Even everything we "recycle" is shipped to China to be recycled THERE.

Government regulations at every level of government is our real killer...Not only taxes, not only labor.

OH and our real economic killer is pensions, (not SS) but ALL government and even private pensions.

[gg188]

IBM is replacing or offshoring another 14,000 American jobs. The story is posted somewhere here on FR today.

[AllAmericanGirl44]

bkmk

[Kellis91789]

Just an import tariff wouldn’t level the playing field. People do not realize just how skewed things are today.

China places an import duty of between 0% and 100% on goods depending on what it is. By dollar value it averages 12.5%. Then it also places a 17% VAT on top of that, while simultaneously REFUNDING 17% to its own manufacturers for whatever they export.

By contrast, the USA manufacturer has FICA and Income taxes built into the products it exports to China, and gets no refund from the IRS.

Germany (and I think all EU countries with a VAT) have a 19% VAT that gets refunded to their manufacturers when they export and 19% ADDED to the price of American goods sold their.

“Fair Trade” would be if we balanced those tax policies for imports and exports with each country. That would require placing a 32% tariff on Chinese goods and ALSO crediting American manufacturers with 17% of the value of exports to China. 19% each way for Germany. Imagine giving GM a 19% tax credit for Cadilacs shipped to Germany while adding a 19% tariff to BMW vehicles imported.

These numbers seem outrageous, but how can people argue that “free trade (ie, no import tariffs)” is a reasonable policy when our “best” trading partners are so openly screwing us with their own import/export tax policies ? The only way to ever achieve “free trade” and have it be a reasonable policy is if our trading partners first stop cheating.

Trump gets that. Most of us get that.

The fine folks at National Review, Wall Street Journal, Fox News, CNBC, et al. must see it but are unwilling to admit it — they screech about trade wars and Smoot Hawley and how wonderful “free trade” is. We have BEEN in a TRADE WAR for decades, and should have learned by now that unilateral disarmament works no better in TRADE that in any other warfare.

[stocksthatgoup]

Ted the parrot

[OftheOhio]

Thanks Boss,
I wrote this today for a FReep article. Keep your head up you old farts. I went from being a lead designer in three of the five divisions at Wright Patterson to being let go (2008) at 56 with the other older people at my company. I had just salvaged a multimillion dollar project for them too that wasn’t one of my projects. Nearly two and a half years later with no interviews I landed a temporary job physically catching diapers off the end of an experimental packaging line. The irony is I was a designer on one of the most advanced packaging lines ever in the 80’s. Walmart considered me for a “greeter” job at 60. We’re talking a guy here who designed a first generation hypersonic test chamber. I still rage. A young woman at P & G interviewed me for a contract job and she selected another person. A thank you letter to her for the interview kept me in mind and he only lasted four months, so I got my shot. Mr. machinist, photographer, statistician, product testing and evaluation, analysis and reports, testing machine improvements and lab work. When things were slow, I farmed myself out to other groups there, lol. Everyone there always asked me if there wasn’t anything I couldn’t do. I hope some HR types are reading this, just because we’re old don’t count us out.

To all here, would you prefer me to be a Walmart greeter or working on technologies to propel us to Mars and yes there’s not a whole lot I can’t do. This is all about us, our jobs, our children, our future. From a lead designer on national aerospace plane technologies to catching diapers, that’s where we’re at.

[Alberta's Child]

It usually doesn't work that way in business. Economies of scale are critical in most manufacturing operations. If you sell a product all over the world, it makes sense to produce it not only in the place where it's cheapest to make it, but in a place where you can ship it easiest to your customer base.

That's why the U.S. is still the dominant manufacturing center for products that are sold mainly here in the U.S. but not in large numbers elsewhere -- like cars (mainly SUVs, which aren't driven in large numbers in other countries), passenger jets, ATVs, etc.

[xzins]

U.S. manufacturing employment would have been declining for years even if the U.S. was the only country in the world, and there was no such thing as "foreign trade."

Then why are those jobs overseas....if they don't exist?

I was in Vietnam a few years back, and I was absolutely amazed at the number of US factories I saw.

Someone needs to let them know that automation has killed those American jobs.