Unconfirmed Reports Suggest Militia Leader LaVoy Finicum Killed In Firefight With Police - http://breaking911.com/highways-closed-hospital-on-lockdown-near-scene-of-burns-ore-militia-standoff-after-reports-of-shots-fired/ …
Posted on 01/28/2016 10:11:03 PM PST by Nachum
Oregon protest leader Ammon Bundy and seven others were arrested Tuesday night. Protester LaVoy Finicum was killed in the confrontation with police and the FBI.
Unconfirmed Reports Suggest Militia Leader LaVoy Finicum Killed In Firefight With Police - http://breaking911.com/highways-closed-hospital-on-lockdown-near-scene-of-burns-ore-militia-standoff-after-reports-of-shots-fired/ …
On Wednesday Cliven Bundy, father of Ammon Bundy, told reporters his son told him the FBI murdered militia spokesman LaVoy Finicum with his hands up.
“LaVoy Finicum was murdered. Cold-blooded murder. They shot him with his hands up.â€
(Excerpt) Read more at thegatewaypundit.com ...
My take on this is that there were incompetents involved in setting up the ambush.
As you can see in the video, they set up the second roadblock around a blind curve. You can see the double yellow ends right about where they set up. He's tapping the brakes every once in a while as he's traveling at speed before the second roadblock, but they don't come on and stay on until he FINALLY sees the second roadblock.
Where they set up didn't give a fast-approaching vehicle time to stop without piling into the roadblock - especially if there's any slickness to the road.
At this point, Finicum made the decision to go around to the left, because once again, the incompetent(s) who set it up didn't understand that they needed to have their trucks INTO the snowbanks on either side.
At this point, another of the incompetents at the second roadblock makes an appearance.
He dives INTO the path of Finicum's truck. This is a completely stupid move.
This isn't "blood in their eyes", as you wrote, and I agree.
This is what I call "a pack of LEO coonhounds". They have a raccoon treed, and they just start doing the stupid things that excited coonhounds do.
At this point, what you wrote kicks in:
Jeff Head wrote: "In such circumstances, there was a very high probability, even a likelihood that he would be shot."
It's a done deal.
He's going to get shot, if he doesn't belly-flop IMMEDIATELY, with his arms out. Would they have shot him lying there, when they were shooting up the truck afterwards? I don't know.
I'll examine one more point:
Jeff Head wrote: "3) He came out of the car and acted erratically, and appeared to reach for a gun."
Yes, ON THE DRONE VIDEO, "He came out of the car and acted erratically, and appeared to reach for a gun".
Which is why they didn't release the ground-level videos, with audio, which may tell quite a different story. To complicate matters for them, he was apparently yelling at the same time, thus timestamping the audio.
The audio is IMPORTANT - you have people very late in this thread arguing that the LEOs didn't shoot up the truck, which is patently absurd, as you can see the shots hitting the vehicle.
Jeff Head wrote:
The wee lulled into this...and I believe falsely promised safe passage, in order for those in charge to end it as they desired...and without regard to the danger to either those people or their own personnel.That's okay if there is a critical, dangerous situation which has either already resulted in death and injury to American citizens, or threatens to do so at any time,. But that was not the case here.
So, IMHO, those managers are culpable in this death and should face criminal and hefty civil charges for it...and I believe they will, and most probably the latter.
I'm in complete agreement with this.
Jeff Head wrote:
1) He drove away from the initial stop.
On the drone video, Finicum drove away from the initial stop. Apparently, they were being fired upon. We can't hear this on the silent drone video.
Please correct me if I'm wrong about this point.
“In general, to obtain a full effect: both darts must hit the target, the copper wires must remain attached and useable, and heavy clothes, if not completely penetrated, must be near the subject's body. When these conditions are not met, the expected results may not be obtained, and a Taser officer may need to reapply the device either with a new cartridge or in the stun mode. “
http://www.pointshooting.com/1ataserd.htm
I believe the LEO on the left was close to being outside of the recommended range for use against heavy clothing - if indeed he was firing a Taser(facts not in evidence)
I also forgot to post this:
from an article: "We also know that Ammon told his wife that the FBI agents were agitated about what had happened, that it didn't go right and they shouldn't have fired on him and killed him."
As you wrote, the officers didn't want to kill and silence them.
I think they "coonhounded". Just watch what they're all doing when Finicum comes BAILING around that blind curve.
At full arm extension, he got within 12 feet, or maybe a foot less than that.
You can see him messing with the wires from the Taser after he gets around the bush.
I'm arguing incompetent.
I agree, POST training took hold.
Yep. They "coonhounded"
Did you see this tidbit?:
from an article: "We also know that Ammon told his wife that the FBI agents were agitated about what had happened, that it didn't go right and they shouldn't have fired on him and killed him."
These would be the FBI agents who came down the road after Finicum, and were holding the initial arrested group.
Whoever was in charge at the second roadblock was an incompetent boob.
The buffoon jumped into the path of the vehicle. He coonhounded.
The supervisor on that roadblock should have had that man ziptied in the back of one of his blockade vehicles.
Instead, they're probably lauding him as a "hero".
I wouldn't want that guy anywhere NEAR me with a firearm - hunting, in the street, on a practice range - ANYWHERE.
They didn't even need tire spikes. A standing dead pine pole knocked over in the road "artfully" arranged to look natural would have slowed him down enough to not precipitate the attempted dive into the snowbank on the side of the roadblock.
Or that he was trying to "commit suicide by cop," a rumor I've heard. This is totally ludicrous. How did the person who says such a careless, idle thing explain to us how he got such privileged access to Lavoy's deepest conscience and intentions? What hogwash!!! (So bad, even the hog objects.)
No, make no mistake about it: Lavoy was executed because of his ideas, his beliefs about the constitutional order of his dearly-beloved home, his country. Which ideas are exceedingly inimical to the interests of the Washington establishment. Hence, they snuffed him. They didn't want another Waco or Ruby Ridge, this time. They settled on one sacrificial victim, just to make their point.
Point taken: Do not mess with or defy the Feds in any way, shape, or form, EVER. Submit, and we'll leave you in peace. Otherwise, prepare to be severely handled.
I'm sickened over this incident. I pray God will bless and comfort Lavoy's family on their terrible loss, and that He will continue to bless patriots like Lavoy.
And you, Jeff! Thank you so very much for your astute and judicious analysis of these events!
No...you are completely wrong about this.
He was no bafoon. He was doing exactly what they have been trained to do, and he was willing to risk injury or death to do so.
Please do not knee jerk with such statements.
There was one officer already in position on the right side. When Lavoy drove to the left, this guy came out of his vehicle to position himself on that side and force Lavoy into the snow.
Lavoy had the choice to either run down the officer, or veer further to the left and get his right tires off the pavement into the snow...which is what happened.
But the fact that he was willing to try and go around, and get that close to the officers, would justifiably be taken by those officers as evidence of his being willing to threaten their life to get away.
And that is what happened.
As I say, it is tragic...but these law enforcement people were not bafoons, murderers, or incompetent in the least. They were simply put into a bad situation by their superiors.
They did not need the strips to puncture the tires. They had a virtually impassable road block set up...perhaps they had the strips past that. My guess is that they had another road block beyond that one because we see other cars, near the end, arriving from that direction.
“I’m sickened over this incident. I pray God will bless and comfort Lavoy’s family on their terrible loss, and that He will continue to bless patriots like Lavoy.”
...
My sentiments exactly. I go further however. After he was “taken down” there were citizens in the vehicle who presented NO THREAT to law enforcement. Look at the vehicle immobile in the snow bank, with no one firing out of it. Obviously NO THREAT from the vehicle just sitting there, with no one firing back, with the occupants hunkered down. The vehicle contained perhaps at least one citizen who might be arrested on a warrant, and also collateral innocents. YET the passengers were pummeled with rounds and tear gas, with no opportunity to exit the vehicle to surrender lest they be killed. This is clearly excessive force. It is NOT in our legitimate law enforcement experience for an arrest to be conducted in this hail of fire, much less with innocents in the vehicle. IMHO the focus should be on the injustice to the Hammonds and this egregious attempt to arrest peaceable citizens — with a hail of bullets and gas! Yes, LeVoy too! But the attack on the truck after he was felled, shows the extent of excessive and unnecessary force that was employed, for no legitimate reason because there was NO THREAT.
I slowed down the video close to the moment of shooting.
Clearly, his hands were up and was trying to balance himself in feet of snow.
The man with a rifle shot him possibly in the back or the left side at best. He probably shot him twice anyway. I am sure he was screaming the usual warning and LaVoy must have been answering, do not shoot.
This regime is getting tired of ANY opposition, no matter how minute it is. In this case, the regime was afraid of another Wacko reaction and their frustration to do something ended by grabbing the chance in an open area.
The regime transmitted the message they longed to transmi; watch your step or end up dead!
Law enforcement needs to lose the "Confrontation Uber Alles!" attitude and training.
I maintain that it was a stupid move. They could have accomplished the same thing by moving the wing vehicles 3-4 feet farther OFF the road, into the snowbanks.
That's not true, Jeff.
If buffoon coonhound hadn't bounded into Finicum's path, there's a very good chance that he would have made it around.
That speaks of unfamiliarity with snow, and how to use it.
We just disagree on the competence of the coonhound pack at the second roadblock.
Did you not see the comment from Ammon Bundy to his wife that I posted?
Thanks, betty. we have been friends and strategists here on FR for many years. Please, read my entire analysis:
http://www.jeffhead.com/Lavoy.htm
I do not believe that Lavoy was “executed.” I do not believe the officers on the scene had any desite to kill himm on anyone. I do not believe they received an order to kill anyone.
There were eight people there. Seven lived, and they all surrendered peacefully and without a threat.
Thos offiers were put in a bad situation that shuld never have been set up...and they were by managers who wanted to end the situation and were willing to put people at risk to do so. They are the ones culpable for the decisions.
By Lavoy made decisions too. Those decisions, sadly and tragically led to his death.
1) He left the 1st stop. I have gone over and over the film...I see no evidence that shots were firred at the first stop.
2) He attempted to get around the road bock. HE almosty hit an officer in the process which would have been taken by those officers as a threat to their life.
3) He got out of the car and did not get down on the ground in the snow. He acted erracially, he did reach down twie, and, my dunerstanding from people close to the event was that he was demanding to see the sheriff and not complying with the orders given him.
These things were a recipe for diaster in that situation that the officers found themselves in and that LAvoy found himself in.
I understand his desire to try and talk sense into the officers, and to demand to see the sheriff. But that was not the place for it...and in an event where he had just narrowly missed hitting and injuring or killing one of the officers, it was not the time.
They had been told he was aremed and dangerous. He was armed. And regardless of what we think...in their mind he had just shwon them he was dangeorus. when he reached that secnd time...they were not going to wait and see if he pulled out a gun.
I am sickened by this and saddened by it too. Lavoy was a good man. He was a great father and grandfather and he and his wife were taking care of foster children. He was also a great American.
But he really should have either:
1) Surrendered at the fist stop.
2) Stopped at the road block and surrendered.
3) Simply have gotten down on the ground.
I am certain if he had done any of those, he would not be dead.
As it is, I pray for his soul, for his family and friends, and for our country. That we will not forget. That we will continue to be wiling to protest and fight against these over-reaches. And that the resulting legal action will look at and go after those that ordered this senseless action.
This is correct, and I second the opinion.
We we do disagree.
I know a number of good, solid, loyal and patriotic Americans who serve in these positions. They are not bafoons, they are not incompetent, and and their training is not improper.
I have talked to a number of them about this. Some have posted on this thread...and while they mourn the loss of this good man, to a man (thus far) they agree that what happened here, as shown on the video was within any normal response to such a situation.
It’s easy to try and second guess these guys from afar. The left does it all the time. And if there was any hint of wrong oing I would be the first to point it out,.
In this case, these people were put into a bad situation by their superiors, and then Lavoy make critical decisions in how he responded to it that led to himbeing shot and killed.
That may not be popular with some here...but it is the truth.
Name of Shawna Cox son-in-law is Logan Brown from Kanab UT trying to confirm the information that he was killed in a fire/explosion in his garage last night. Also that Shawna was released from jail.
I understand that what happened was within any normal response to such a situation.
I'm just opining that some of that training is bad tactics.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.