Posted on 10/11/2014 4:06:45 AM PDT by Kaslin
Reading the bio alongside Steven Bucci’s Daily Signal piece on the Ebola-inspired Liberia travel ban made me want to meet him and shake his hand. He “served America for three decades as an Army special forces officer and top Pentagon official,” now serving as director of the Allison Center for Foreign Policy Studies at the Heritage Foundation.
Military Hero. Heritage. How do I not love that? Yet oddly, his piece opposing a temporary block on incoming West African travelers struck me as completely wrong, so my usual instinct kicked in— to welcome him to my radio show.
His headline, “Wisdom Should Prevail Over Panic,” suggests he is the wise one and I am panicking. I asked him why he would attach a “panic” label to the large number of Americans advocating the disallowance of incoming LIberians:
SB: Because frankly you are then excluding a ton of folks who are not posing any danger to anyone, you’re really hurting the economies of those countries, when they’re already teetering on the brink, frankly.
MD: So because of concern over the fragile economies of West African nations, or the slight that we may inflict to thousands of people who pose no risk— because of those, we need to say, “Hey, just in from Monrovia? Come on in!”
SB: The biggest reason is those kind of bans have historically been proven to not do what they promise to do. They don’t give you the level of protection as a society, whether it be a city or a country that it seems intuitively they would.
MD: Well, what’s an example of one where everybody thought our level of safety would go up, and it did not?
SB: If you do the analysis after the 1918 Spanish flu, which was like the worst pandemic ever… there were communities, cities in the United States that tried to do that, they tried to basically wall themselves off, keep everybody else out, keep all of their people in, and the disease made it in anyway.
MD: But these are American cities… where freedom of passage, and roads, and— I can’t imagine walling off a city. In no way is that analogous to what a country can do. We are absolutely able to monitor who comes into and out of our country. Liberian passport equals you’re not getting in.
SB: Looking at this particular outbreak, the country of Sierra Leone started, after they had one case that came in, they said, ‘Okay, nobody else is coming in our country’… and it failed, it failed miserably, and they wasted a ton of assets trying to do it, instead of putting the assets against the more useful population distancing and mitigation…
Here’s what was so peculiar: Mr. Bucci had several ideas that were thoroughly valuable in terms of what West African nations can do, and what we can do, to minimize the spread of Ebola. I had no quarrel with any of them. What was disorienting was the enormous pushback— from a conservative!— with logic pulled straight from the index cards of the left. I returned to his curious notion that an American attempt to stop incoming Liberians would be as failed as the Spanish Flu barriers of 1918 or the sparse border controls of West Africa.
MD: We absolutely have the ability to say “If you have a Liberian passport, you’re not coming in.” Try to tell me why that’s not a good idea.
SB: Because it will waste assets and it will not work.
MD: What assets are wasted?
SB: All of the stuff you have to do to make sure that happens.
MD: Wow. “Liberian passport— no.” That wasn’t expensive.
SB: Okay, are you going to do it for Spain, too?
Really? Was this happening? Was the suggestion that the advocacy of a travel ban from a country with thousands of Ebola cases necessarily leads to the advocacy of a travel ban from a country with one? This was disingenuous, and with all respect, I told him so. (Guests are always welcome, in turn, to tell me when they think I am committing a similar sin.)
So we returned to the other premise against the travel ban— that “it will not work.”
MD: How does that, purely mathematically not work?
SB: All the epidemiological studies that have been done by the CDC and these other public health professionals, who are not terribly panic-ridden…
Again with the panic. Getting the theme? It is a sign of delusion to remotely suggest that the CDC may be politically or attitudinally restrained from delivering full honesty. But he continues:
SB: Their point is you can better deal with these things, by one, breaking the outbreak where it’s begun, over there, thats how you protect the world, and therefore increase our protection, and to do that the kind of bans that you’re talking about are counterproductive.
MD: How is that the case? How is doing what I’m talking about— saying no to Liberian entries— how does that hinder the admittedly praiseworthy things that you’re mentioning?
SB: Because it will not give us the protection tat you think it will give us.
Well, apparently they are teaching mind-reading in the Special Forces. Mr. Bucci thinks he knows the level of protection I expect from a travel ban. For those less clairvoyant, I will reveal that I have no idea of the exact level of protection a Liberian passport stoppage would offer. But I know that whatever it is, it is wise. Whether it stops one Ebola-positive entry or one hundred or one thousand, it is a reduction compared to what we would otherwise have.
And don’t talk to me about this ridiculous fever-detection technology in various airports. A fistful of Motrin will keep body temperature under control until the new arrival is well within the American city of his choice.
In his opinion piece, Mr. Bucci quoted CDC chairman Tom Frieden, who set up a straw man a freshman philosophy student could recognize: “I wish we could get to zero risk by sealing off the borders, but we can’t.”
MD: No one is suggesting that the risk can be brought to zero. But mathematically it is true, risk will reduce if we say no to entries from the country that is the absolute ground zero for Ebola.
SB: The trade-off is not worth the added benefit.
MD: So you’re admitting there is a benefit. On the other side of the scale, the things that make it, on balance, not worth doing— so far I’ve gotten concern over the West African economy— what else was there?
SB: That it will essentially cause this outbreak to last longer and get bigger—
MD: How does that happen? That saying no to Liberian entry to America increases the outbreak?
SB: it will cause the efforts there to fight the outbreak to take longer and be less effective.
MD: How? How does that hamper Ebola fighting over there?
SB: Because the flow of goods and services in and out will be hampered, because when the United States does it, everybody else in the world will piggyback on it, and you will hinder the ability of the public health people to get assets in there—
MD: Not at all. Military assistance, charter flights going over there to help…that’s something we can do. My specific question is: how does saying no to Liberian entries over here hamper fighting it over there?
If you are sensing that I am asking the same question multiple times, you are correct. I do that when : a) I do not get an answer, or b) I cannot fathom the answer I am getting. We learn something no matter what happens, when the guest either relents and changes the answer or finds new ways to stick to his guns.
SB: It will not provide the benefit it is promising. You will give people false hope that they are protected…
No one has made such a suggestion. I ask why we should not do everything we can do to reduce risk to the American people?
SB: Everything that is going to be beneficial, and will not have other unintended consequences.
MD: I love you in a lot of ways, but there is not one unintended consequence that you’ve made the case for, not one.
SB: Well, we’d have to disagree on that.
And with that, I sincerely thanked this American hero who works for one of the greatest conservative think tanks in American history. With his history and his current business card, I would bet we would agree on twenty out of twenty other issues he has covered in his current post.
And again, it is not strange to find someone making his arguments. It is strange to find someone making these arguments from somewhere other than the White House or the CDC.
No matter its source, it is a flawed notion that America as a global citizen owes more to Ebola-stricken nations than we owe our own citizens.
Let me see if I can make it simple enough for even you to understand.....If someone thinks we should prevent people coming to the US from countries with an Ebola outbreak, then Ebola breaks out in another country, is it not logical to ask that person what they think about preventing people coming here from that country as well?.....Now for your edification; asking a question is not, I repeat NOT, making a statement for or against anything. Neither is it building any sort of straw man. In this case it was seeking an opinion as related to a previously stated opinion.
Obsessed? I would say responding to me on threads I have never posted on is a pretty strong symptom of a mental problem of some sort; if not obsession then certainly some sort of delusion. I really think you should discuss this with your doctor.
If you refuse to seek medical treatment at least go to your local community college and see if they offer classes in reading comprehension, logic, or maybe English as a second language.
Straw man, you’ve been caught.
I received a number of positive comments on my posts... thank you - I thought I was going to explode from pent up frustration with the likes of this guy who was interviewed.
God Bless him for his service — but some combat vets come back with a need to spread kindness after a lot of hellfire - so I understand and forgive him for not having his political feet on the ground...
Rely on your Gut feelings on this subject... We own nothing to anyone outside the United States ... we should protect our neighbors even when they are too blind to see... to a point that is ...
The flue virus of 1918 was transmitted by passenger pigeons as one of the vectors.
That is why an international effort to exterminate them was mounted and successfully made carrier pigeons extinct.
Of course quarantine will fail when you have migratory avians spreading it. Not the case with Ebola. Why does this idiot not know that?
I am actually surprised by the depth of your obsession with me....I don’t pose nude, but I will send you a few photos if you think they will help anytime you need a quick csmusaret fix.
Now be a good boy and go take your meds.
Because, like apparently all liberals, he believes migratory monkeys will spread this anyway no matter what we do...
/s
(I’ll leave others to define ‘migratory monkeys, as while it was intended at being mocking...not completely)
“An outbreak in this country and the entire worlds economy will go in the crapper,...”
Maybe THAT is the reason why they are allowed to visit the US!
Remember hoof and mouth in the UK a few years back?
Ebola Surveillance Thread
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3191066/posts?q=1&;page=541
Great read. I’d like to know why this guys Bucci, a strong conservative, has adopted this flawed reasoning. Very puzzling.
But Biden is sick from foot in mouth disease!
He gets worse by the day, possibly minute.
“Keeping West Africans from coming to America would hurt their economy... I don’t believe it for an instant... “
They should develop an Internet-based economy, like Nigeria.
American Samoa used an effective maritime blockade in 1918 to prevent the Spanish flu from coming in from neighboring islands.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2570822/
Of course, just checking visas to the USA isn't going to be good enough. We have to block them to anywhere in the western hemisphere as we don't protect our southern border.
Nothing is perfect, quarantines help, shut the damn door.
A few days ago someone on another site had the same theory and I had to agree with him.
His belief was the worlds economy is on the verge of complete collapse and there is no stopping it so they need an excuse.
Something to blame other than the liberal economic policy of the welfare state so the left can retain power.
He also believed govts around the world would basically reset themselves to Fascism/Nazism.
Straw man, you’ve been caught.
BINGO!!!
Winner, winner, chicken dinner!
Can’t let a good crisis go to waste!
Personally I believe we’re asking for big trouble by sending in thousands of airborne unit combat troops to a country known as Liberia. Which according to some functionary appointed by “Obama The Magnificent Incompetent” are being sent there to help construct infastructure for a series of Ebola health clinics.
Liberia is a country created by former American slaves who’s capital,Monrovia,is named after an American President James Monroe. According to a report I heard from a local conservative talk show host which I could be wrong,(and truly hope so) reported. “The city has only 7 or 9 public toilets, and a mere 26 miles of fresh water piping.”
Right now the country has just gotten through a bitter civil war and seems to be the current epicenter of the Ebola outbreak that btw started after an infestation of caterpillars. I mention that because Sierra Leone where the epidemic originated from had the same experience.
Here is some of the other krap that is going on there;
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3212853/posts
grave digger strike
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3213168/posts
election canceled
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/3199783/posts
doctors strike
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3211428/posts
malaria
While it’s obvious we gave this effort by former enslaved American citizens to return to the continent they were taken from meger attention and support following its creation than what should been given.
Under present circumstances we should be circumspective of the assistance we offer. Certainly sending combat units not equipted with the knowledge, training, or backgound to do what is needed. Placing them in harms way in an area where the likelyhood of contracting a deadly disease is pre eminent simply because it suits political symbolism is madness.
what the difference if its a suicide bomber with a conventional weapon up his butt and one with a biological weapon in his vomit and blood getting on that plane?.....
why the whole passport system around the world .. what it it function if it has zero control on the flow of people...
how hard is it to do some extra screening of people that travel to from a hot zone.
you ask me at custom if I brought any fruits and vegetables in the the country. .to protect the country farms from foreign insects. .. but not about diseases might have come in contact with?
Your fricking quarantine my pet from going from one country to another because they might have some diseases that could hurt other animals.. But people you dont bother.
I have to get a visa and be checked out ahead of times weeks in advance to travel to some country's.. but we cant do it for people traveling from hot zone countries?.. Damm you have to get shots and carry a card listing them for some travel issued by the cdc.... but no check for ebola
A link to this thread has been posted on the Ebola Surveillance Thread
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