Chaos in southern Ukraine: Deadly fire, choppers down and street fighting

CNN World ^ | updated 9:23 PM EDT, Fri May 2, 2014 | By Nick Paton Walsh, Chelsea J. Carter and Victoria Butenko, CNN

[Mariner]

Slavyansk, Ukraine (CNN) -- Deadly street fighting, helicopters shot down and civilians being used as human shields.

That was the picture that emerged Friday in southern Ukraine as violence escalated amid reports that dozens of people were killed in a fire and still more were shot dead or wounded in street fighting, raising the question of whether the country can stave off a possible civil war.

The violence -- pitting pro-Russian separatists against Ukrainian forces and those who support the government in Kiev -- prompted an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council, with Russia demanding an end to what it called Ukrainian aggression and Western powers accusing Moscow of funding the violence.

Russia and the West have squared off diplomatically over the fate of Ukraine, after Moscow annexed Crimea in March following the ouster of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych. He was pushed from office after months of protests by people upset that he had turned away from Europe in favor of Russia.

[rbmillerjr]

I see a link to a “Bush wants Ukraine and Georgia in Nato”

That was rejected by the West. What else ya got?

[SunkenCiv]

Putin’s Cheerleaders hardest hit.

[RedMDer]

FReepers! Charge!
Two percent a day keeps the 404 away.


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[Laissez-faire capitalist]

It surely has to be (though I can't say for sure) one of the two hypotheses that you present in your opening post.

Which one, I don't know.

What I do know is that Obama has the anti-Midas touch on foreign policy: 1.) Libya (Benghazi),

2.) Egypt: The Obama administration said the Muslim Brotherhood was “largely secular.”

It turned out they weren't. They persecuted Jews, Christians, and secular Muslims in Egypt more than Mubarak was said to have done, were ousted and now Egypt is unfortunately closer to Russia than it is the U.S.

3.) Syria: Obama waited two years two late, and thug Assad is left in power because most Americans realized that it was either him or Al Qaeda on the throne in Syria.

Because of the Arab “Spring” Israel is now unfortunately closer to Russia than the U.S. And God help us on that...

[Zhang Fei]

The beginning of this whole mess starts here: Bush Urges NATO Membership for Ukraine, Georgia We poked the bear, and now the bear has woken up.

Both countries provided men and equipment for Iraq and Afghanistan. Assuming Russia had cast off its imperial ambitions, this was probably a prelude to admitting Russia itself into NATO, thereby ensuring that Russia would never have to square off against China on its own. As it stands, China will probably eventually take all of Russia east of the Urals, when it's good and ready. And Russia will stand alone when that happens. Its silly preoccupation with the threat from the West will cause it to be blindsided by the colossus from the East.

[Zhang Fei]

I know the East thinks of Bandera as a Nazi, but he was a nationalist ( not socialist ) fighting a partisan war against Stalin’s Soviet Russia. He aligned with Hitler, but if your choice is Hitler or Stalin, who would you pick ( particularly with Stalin wanting to deport ALL Ukrainians and killing mainly through a manufactured starvation about 25% of the population )?

Bandera had fewer options than Finland's Mannerheim, who also allied with Hitler. Allying with Stalin was never a choice for Bandera, who would have been executed. (It wasn't a choice for Mannerheim either, for more or less the same reasons - Stalin had a way of murdering large numbers of people who worked for him, whereas Hitler did not). Mannerheim had his own trained and well-equipped military, whereas Bandera did not. Prior to the mass killings (not foreseeable at the start of WWII, when Stalin was by far the bigger mass murderer) Hitler later perpetrated, in the name of becoming the leader of an empire cleansed of its subhuman quotient, he probably seemed far preferable to Stalin.

[Zhang Fei]

Incorrect to an extent. I know it’s from Wikipedia, but without directing you to a few books: ‘Unlike competing Polish, Russian, Hungarian or Romanian nationalisms in late imperial Austria, imperial Russia, interwar Poland and Romania, Ukrainian nationalism did not include antisemitism as a core aspect of its program and saw Russians as well as Poles as the chief enemy with Jews playing a secondary role.’ ‘Nevertheless, Ukrainian nationalism was not immune to the influence of the antisemitic climate in the Eastern and Central Europe, that had already become highly racialized in the late 19th century, and had developed an elaborate anti-Jewish discourse.’ ‘However, Ukrainian nationalistic Jews were welcome in the Banderivtsy, provided they adopted the identity of the Galician Karaites, who were regarded as loyal compatriots.’ And this is exactly what happened at the Maidan; Jews fighting next to and with the Right Sector amongst others.

It's traditional Christian anti-semitism. They don't care about your bloodlines as long as you convert to Christianity. In contrast, Nazism was all about bloodlines - if your ancestor was a Jew, you were headed to the gas chamber. Bandera's top lieutenants were married to Jews.

[Timber Rattler]

Assuming Russia had cast off its imperial ambitions, this was probably a prelude to admitting Russia itself into NATO, thereby ensuring that Russia would never have to square off against China on its own.

Then what would be the point of NATO since it function was/is to defend Europe against Russia?

[More Objective than Subjective]

I know about the military industrial complex in Ukraine, and wold not doubt the pro-referendum ‘activists’ may have gained access to some weapons.

However, from what little research I’ve done, the newest version of RPG30 is produced in Russia and until very recently, was not available for export. There is definitive proof that the “little green men” had these in Slovyansk.

As to videos, I have seen tons of footage from Ukraine including the most recent of Odessa. I should emphasize that this protest was basically young soccer fans but a very small percentage were Right Sector. There is a great YouTube video of a Right Sector ‘provocateur’ almost getting his butt handed to him by an angry crowd of people ( pro Ukrainian supporters ).

And I have seen the barbaric videos such as in Kharkov of the gauntlet of Kiev protesters going through angry Russian speakers and the same in Western Ukraine such as making the one politician get on his knees. And I’ve seen both the police beating people on both sides and police getting beat by both sides, though the ones in Eastern Ukraine for the most part are much more brutal.

I did not see videos of the pro Ukrainians firing at or into the building ( I do not include air soft guns as real guns ) however, I saw pro referendum protestors firing real guns at the other side both on the streets and in the building.

What is also important, the far right has never held much political power in the Rada percentage wise and I doubt they will in the future.

I wrote this in another post, but the Right Sector is not one group. They are a Ukrainian nationalist coalition made up of ordinary nationalist ( patriots ), ultra-nationalists, and the far right such as the Ukrainian National Assembly – Ukrainian National Self Defence ( which people confuse with solely being Right Sector ) and Svoboda which has according to their platform moved more to maybe a Republican Tea Party equivalent.

Here is an article about the Right Sector ( though they incorrectly lump them all in as ultra-nationalists ).

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/after-ukraine-protest-radical-group-eyes-power

As to the protestors on the Maidan being terrorists, I highly disagree. The Maidan protesters started out with students and Ukrainian professionals ( or what little middle class there is in Ukraine ). They were truly peaceful. Of course you will always have agitators or provocateurs in any protest, but in the beginning, there were virtually none of these. As you know, this protest went on for months.

When the police and titushki started to brutally beat these protestors and many incidents were caught on video. This changed the entire movement. Parents, grandparents, civilized people all over Ukraine were outraged and ashamed that the authorities were behaving like animals. So were the street people which became much of the figurative cannon fodder of the front lines while the peaceful protesters had their rallies and listened to speeches and music.

It went from thousands of protestors to at times hundreds of thousands. And the bulk of the footage during these times are going to of emotional, sensational events which gets eyeballs of viewers.

People were tired of the corruption, the institutionalized criminality, the brutality. And yes, 100% it was a coup, but in a political system as corrupt and inept as in Ukraine, the people spoke and demanded the President resign. Were we going to keep abiding by oppressive English law or have the American Revolution?

The EU thing was really in the beginning, and may have even been financed by the West, BUT it changed into the desire for a country that is corrupt and continually under the thumb of the Kremlin to transform to a modern country along the lines of economically like Poland or politically like Finland where living standards get better and there is hope of a better future.

There needs to be fair, transparent, inclusive national elections that can provide legitimacy to a new government truly elected by the people. Is May 25 realistic, probably not. But the sooner the better, and if it is the people’s will, hopefully a new Constitution. I would like to see decentralization and the right to bear arms for sure.

[Zhang Fei]

Then what would be the point of NATO since it function was/is to defend Europe against Russia?

From Wikipedia:

The first NATO Secretary General, Lord Ismay, stated in 1949 that the organization's goal was "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down."

Keeping "the Germans down" was more or less code for keeping Germany integrated within a structure that guaranteed its security so that any domestic political appeals to irredentism and revanchism (a la Hitler) in the name of national security became moot. A NATO that included Russia would presumably have the objective of "keeping the Chinese out, the Americans in and the Russians down".

[DoughtyOne]

IMO, the Arab spring was a well orchestrated effort sans Obama to begin with. He sure jumped in with both feet to muck things up though, making it all that much more worse.

He totally blew Benghazi. Hopefully, he and his administration will pay dearly for that. Not holding my breath.

It is so strange to watch folks talk about U. S. complicity and Ukrainian corruption, when you realize Putin has gamed his system to remain in power for 14 years now. And when one realizes how corrupt our ow government is, it’s rather laughable to use the pretext of corruption as grounds for invasion and annexation.

Man, Putin is a hero to some folk around here. The guy is an ally of China right now, and building up his military to become a one/two threat with it.

This guy is no modern day hero.

[Zhang Fei]

Before WWII, prior to NATO, European countries used to have these border wars every couple of decades or so. After NATO came into being, the one border war between member states was between Turkey and Greece over Cyprus.

[gundog]

...can u imagine what Putin will do if Hillary is elected?

Clear a space on his mantel for another "RESET" button?

[lodi90]

The crowd who took over with mob at their back in Kiev let the genie out of the bottle and no one has to do anything to keep it going now.

---

The Ukrainians have nothing to do with Putin abusing his other neighbors. The biggest problem in the region is the President of Russia abuses and murders his neighbors. Of course Ukraine is in chaos now. There has been months and months of Russian state sponsored terrorism there.

You think Putin is the only one who can play the irregular warfare game? What happens when foreign nationals arrive and are fighting on the Ukrainian’s side? You think it’s bad now just wait for that. And it will happen.

Russian forces must be removed from Ukraine and Putin’s adventures must be stopped. We are extremely close to a large war in the entire region or world.

[lodi90]

It seems Russia is free to abuse and murder it’s neighbors. However, they are not allowed to defend themselves. That seems to be the basis of the paulbot/armchair isolationist doctrine.

[Fee]

The only smart people in EU is Poland. After fall of Soviet Union, EU and with it most of East Europe that became EU went for the peace dividend. Cut defense and up social welfare. Poland atleast understand the nature of Germany and Russia. They wisely plan for the worst case scenario in Europe - one massive land war against Poland. Poland is the only nation in EU that maintain her force levels and undergo long term plans to modernize. Everyone in EU probably laughed at her, but they are not laughing now.
Ukrainians must be one of the dumbest people on earth. They have a Russian neighbor that thinks they are still part of Russia and many Russian ethnic transplants put in by Stalin to redress the demographics to insure Russian influence and control. Smart Ukrainian leaders will insure their military is mainly composed of Ukrainian ethnics and never let the Russian ethnics have access to military power. Ukrainian leaders did the worst thing, they skimmed their defense budget and enriched themselves via corruption. Their leaders thought that NATO assurances to protect them and Russia promise to recognize their existance was enough to loot their country for their own gain.
Now we have a broke and unprepard Ukraine begging a deeply in debt US and EU for help. Putin definitely loves the situation. IMHO the Ukraine is a lost cause, redraw the next line of defense for NATO at Baltic states, Poland, Slovakia, Romainia and Turkey. Use the Ukraine conflict as a holding action to buy NATO time to ramp up defense budgets and moving forces eastward.

[wetphoenix]

~‘Nevertheless, Ukrainian nationalism was not immune to the influence of the antisemitic climate in the Eastern and Central Europe, that had already become highly racialized in the late 19th century, and had developed an elaborate anti-Jewish discourse.’~

Google ‘pogrom’. Some 90% of these events in a last 400 years happened in either Poland or Ukraine.

[Zhang Fei]

Ukrainian leaders did the worst thing, they skimmed their defense budget and enriched themselves via corruption. Their leaders thought that NATO assurances to protect them and Russia promise to recognize their existance was enough to loot their country for their own gain. Now we have a broke and unprepard Ukraine begging a deeply in debt US and EU for help. Putin definitely loves the situation. IMHO the Ukraine is a lost cause, redraw the next line of defense for NATO at Baltic states, Poland, Slovakia, Romainia and Turkey. Use the Ukraine conflict as a holding action to buy NATO time to ramp up defense budgets and moving forces eastward.

You may be right. The American security guarantee brings with it moral hazard, such that the countries whose security is tacitly guaranteed slack off and make their defense policy one where they fight any would-be conqueror to the last dead GI. The fall of Ukraine may be necessary to prod both Asian and European countries into spending more money for defense, just in case Uncle Sam decides to sit out an attack on these countries by a foreign invader.

[NFHale]

Here’s someone who does live there.

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/updatemay5.html

She keeps a daily (or almost daily) running log of what is going on.

[NFHale]

“...accuse folks who see it as traitors is beyond belief. ...”

Been a lot of that lately. Too much.

Got one flag to worry about - Red, white, and blue, with 50 stars on it. That’s the only flag that matters here.

The EU flag doesn’t matter; the Russian Federation flag doesn’t matter - none of them do. And as much I sympathize with the plight of the Ukrainian people (my ancestors come from there, on dad’s side), THEIR flag doesn’t matter to me either. Only mine.

We have a myriad of our OWN problems right here, right now, with our very own REAL treasonous perps sitting at every level of gov.

The “traitor” stuff IS over the line - ESPECIALLY over this Ukraine issue.

Different opinions aren’t ANYTHING remotely akin to forcing a socialist healthcare system down OUR throats, gov agencies spying on our own people, electoral fraud and rigging elections, etc.