Posted on 03/18/2014 5:28:37 AM PDT by McGruff
Ukraine despatched tanks into the rolling terrain of the Donbas basin on Monday, putting its biggest guns back on the scene of the biggest armoured clash in history.
It was in this bleak but fertile landscape along what is now Ukraine's border with Russia that the Red Army routed Nazi Panzers to turn the course of the Second World War.
But as Ukraine's dilapidated tank units moved to muddy berms in the fields south of Donetsk city as part of face-saving mobilisation, the guns of T-64 and T-72 models were this time pointed towards Russia.
In responding to a reported Russian military build-up, however, Ukraine's military immediately ran into groups of activists who tried to obstruct their movements. In the village of Elenvola on the edge of the great plain, there was anger at the manoeuvres from their own countrymen.
"Russians and Ukrainians don't want to fight each other," said Ivan Inozemev, a prison warder. "We would be happy to be part of Russia if that's what happens."
(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...
There were real tank battles in that war. Several people seem to think that our tanks were sitting in the rear waiting for Air to clean everything up. Which is silly.
In the Iraq invasion (1991), 21 fixed-wing aircraft were shot down by various low-tech means: AA, AAA, SA-2/MANPADs/&c. (even Aircraft). The Ukrainians are not totally defenseless... but they would be without tanks.
Unless, of course, they let it all go to hell and take the chaotic and protracted guerrilla approach which would bog down into a civil war while Russia consolidates their power in a somewhat friendly region with Russian familial ties at every stop.
“Trenches and tanks are a suicide mission that won’t secure anyone’s freedom.”
By themselves yes. But you left out the other 3 pieces of a defensive line: air defense, artillery and air interdiction.
The Ukrainians have all of the assets necessary to support a static defense line. Both sides know it. The Russians will likely not risk the blood bath that would result from an eastern invasion.
Since they’re on the same side, probably not. Given the history between Ukraine and Russia, I’d guess the probability of advance planning is greater.
I agree. In the context of Ken’s reply, though, what would ordinarily be considered a ‘suicide defense’ does have historical examples of success.
I wouldn’t argue that either of the conflicts you mention was necessarily a success in terms of their individual battles, but in both cases a galvanized defense led to eventual victory.
I’d further note that Ken’s example of Japanese defenses in World War II mostly, but not exclusively, occurred on islands, where retreat was hardly an option. As a method of attrition, which was the only way Japan had any hope of slowing down the American juggernaut, it was the only defense available.
Either that, or they see that Putin will face no adverse consequences, no matter what he does.
Perhaps he's telling the truth when he says he will not add any more territories.
But then, most people who saw similar events in Europe 75 years ago are dead, and most people currently alive have no concept of what happened.
As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man.
There are only four things certain since social progress began ...
It’s cool. I re-read my sentence and I see how it could be interpreted in two ways.
It wouldn’t surprise me if elements of the Ukraine military would turn around and march on Kiev to remove those who order them to fight Russia.
Good map and it points out a fact old wargamers like me know only to well.
The best alternative for the Ukrainian military is to set up defenses (arty) along the west bank of the Dnieper river, essentially ceding the eastern half of Ukraine to Russia. The river is a natural defensive line and blowing the bridges is the only way to slow the advance of Russian tanks and mechanized infantry.
The only hope of countering the Russian airforce lies in SA-6 or better, SA-11/SA-12.
Transnistria - a breakaway region in Moldova, supported by Russian military.
unconventional war in a flat country won’t end too well.
“....but successful fights for freedom also have to be accompanied by rational and reality-based decision making...”
Spot on.
Decisions which are made by the people actually THERE, on the ground, on the scene, whose lives will be immediately impacted.
Whether Ukrainians have the will to fight is the million dollar question, tactics/strategy are almost secondary.
But it might not even come to that. Putin can sit back, keep funding the pro-Russian forces in Ukraine, and wait to see if the country splits in two.
wow...that's some old armor there. I feel sorry for those tank crews if they actually have to get into a scrap. They won't last long.
Stop posting lies. How much is the NKVD paying you to get on every thread posting this nonsense?
The president was fraudulently elected
He was a criminal who plundered the Ukrainian treasury
He was suspending their rights as written in their constitution, effectively turning Ukraine into a dictatorship
The protesters were peaceful until his troops and police started firing on them
The leadership in Ukraine is NOT pro nazi
Nice job parroting the propaganda that the Soviet Union throws out this time and every time in the past when they want to “rescue” a country. (And yes I know that officially there hasn’t been a Soviet Union in 30 years, but if you don’t think Putin is trying to recreate it you need to wake up)
Here's what set me off....those protestors. If they pulled that in Cleveland, they would've been arrested for unlawful assembly. If more than three of them worked together to break the law, it would be considered gang activity. And if they burned a circle of tires around anything in Cleveland or stormed out of where they were and citizens felt threatened, they'd be shot by Cleveland police (who shoot for much less). And we'd be cheering....the police.
It's not just Ukraine. I just don't agree with protestors staging coups and then "electing" a new government. It's led to chaos all over. And those protestors are either naive or paid off. Their protests are being manipulated to meet the globalist agenda, and that globalist agenda has nothing to do with what's best for about 98% of the world's population.
Aren't you disgusted with the interference US embassy staff and US Senators (particularly McCain) are having in supporting violent overthrow of governments?
And yes, there is a border that I care very much about defending. That would be our own with Mexico.
Come on man, vacation starts next week! And then two weeks after that. And then another one two weeks after that.
Plus, war isn't in their contract. Take it to the union.
What an asinine conclusion you’ve reached.
Nazi Germany doesn’t exist anymore.
EU does not == Germany. Nato does not == Germany.
What I’m saying is that the U.S should not do or have little to do with anything vis-a-vis Russian and the Ukraine. Particularly militarily. The U.S’s interest in Ukraine is vicariously through our European Allies.
Our military is compromised. We simply cannot be the Big Dog in this fight, and we can’t lead the charge for the EU.
If it’s important to the EU, then let the EU handle it and build the coalition.
Oh, and in regards to Coup in Kiev ......
http://brusselsdiplomatic.com/2014/02/22/impeachment-of-ukrainian-president-viktor-yanukovych/
“KIEV, February 22 (RIA Novosti) – Ukraine’s parliament voted Saturday to impeach the president as opposition parties rushed to consolidate their apparently growing hold on authority in the former Soviet nation.”
Regrettably, that is slmost certain not to happen...
Well, then they will need air support from their neighbors, right?
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