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Tanks and trenches to defend Ukraine from Russia
The Telegraph ^ | 17 Mar 2014 | Damien McElroy, Donetsk

Posted on 03/18/2014 5:28:37 AM PDT by McGruff

Ukraine despatched tanks into the rolling terrain of the Donbas basin on Monday, putting its biggest guns back on the scene of the biggest armoured clash in history.

It was in this bleak but fertile landscape along what is now Ukraine's border with Russia that the Red Army routed Nazi Panzers to turn the course of the Second World War.

But as Ukraine's dilapidated tank units moved to muddy berms in the fields south of Donetsk city as part of face-saving mobilisation, the guns of T-64 and T-72 models were this time pointed towards Russia.

In responding to a reported Russian military build-up, however, Ukraine's military immediately ran into groups of activists who tried to obstruct their movements. In the village of Elenvola on the edge of the great plain, there was anger at the manoeuvres from their own countrymen.

"Russians and Ukrainians don't want to fight each other," said Ivan Inozemev, a prison warder. "We would be happy to be part of Russia if that's what happens."

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Russia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: crimea; putinsbuttboys; russia; surrendermonkeys; ukraine; viktoryanukovich; waronterror; yuliatymoshenko
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To: Jim Noble

Maybe we should provide the air cover—Like the old Flying Tigers in China before the USA was in WW II. Volunteers frlying hot fighters—to fly for Free Ukraine? Maybe get the Euros to help?


41 posted on 03/18/2014 6:18:46 AM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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To: grania
So send the Mexicans home before that happens.

Circular logic--that leads to: "If they needed protection, I'd accept that."

42 posted on 03/18/2014 6:18:46 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

PS: and the case for Russian protection is stronger. The government they democratically voted for was overthrown by a coup.


43 posted on 03/18/2014 6:18:51 AM PDT by grania
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To: yldstrk
think about what you said ... so are you saying that the Warsaw Ghetto uprising wasn’t worth fighting? I differ.

Entirely different situation. In fact, so different, I cannot comprehend how someone could even posit such a comparison with a straight face. In Warsaw, they were doomed. They were going to die, regardless. They were going to lose their country, their culture, everything, and they had no way out. Nothing of the sort is happening here. Ukraine can still muster a credible resistance. They aren't going to be slaughtered wholesale, and they have external countries which will help them (although not decisively). Throwing out this kind of token defense accomplishes nothing, and carries with it a price.

I say in the words of Patrick Henry: “Give me liberty or give me death.”

You can say that all you want. It doesn't give you (not you, but Ukraine) license to take leave of their senses, and abandon any vestige of strategy and long-term thinking. If you say this in order to rationalize any kind of poor decision, you render these words meaningless.
44 posted on 03/18/2014 6:19:10 AM PDT by jjsheridan5
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To: Buckeye McFrog

Thank you, sir....


45 posted on 03/18/2014 6:19:18 AM PDT by ken5050 (I fear a world run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating)
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To: 1rudeboy
that leads to "if they needed protection, I'd accept that

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying.

46 posted on 03/18/2014 6:19:57 AM PDT by grania
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This is old data but shows there already are Russians in parts of Ukraine.


47 posted on 03/18/2014 6:20:06 AM PDT by McGruff (They say the first casualty of war is truth)
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To: grania

You misunderstood. Hypothetically, deporting Mexicans from Texas would lead to Mexico declaring that they need protection, then invading with troops.


48 posted on 03/18/2014 6:22:05 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: EQAndyBuzz

On the bright side, the U.S. and European stock markets rose nicely after Putin’s victory declaration. They believe him when he says he will not add any more territories to his quiver. Obviously, he has more credibility than our lying leader.


49 posted on 03/18/2014 6:22:29 AM PDT by txrefugee
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To: McGruff

Watch as 1000 years of European borders change
http://loiter.co/v/watch-as-1000years-of-european-boarders-change/


50 posted on 03/18/2014 6:23:09 AM PDT by listenhillary (Courts, law enforcement, roads and national defense should be the extent of government)
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To: jjsheridan5

They are doomed. Don’t you get it? Their country is being stolen by a bully. It’s not theirs anymore. What’s to stop the bully?


51 posted on 03/18/2014 6:24:16 AM PDT by yldstrk ( My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: Psalm 73
"Why would Ukraine NOT have air defense systems and close ground support?"

The Warsaw Pact died over twenty years ago and I suspect what systems that existed were shipped back to Russia, have deteriorated or been sold on the black market. I suspect that existing wealth and foreign aid in the Ukraine has been spent on food, fuel, and graft. Not military arms.

52 posted on 03/18/2014 6:27:12 AM PDT by buckalfa (Tilting at Windmills)
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To: yldstrk
They are doomed. Don’t you get it? Their country is being stolen by a bully. It’s not theirs anymore. What’s to stop the bully?

They are not doomed, at least not in the same way that those trapped in Warsaw were. And that was what made your comparison so utterly silly.
53 posted on 03/18/2014 6:27:17 AM PDT by jjsheridan5
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To: ken5050
If the Russians invade, they should order the troops to destroy the tanks in place, and surrender.

They could call it the "McConnell Doctrine."

I would be very surprised if Ukraine had not wargamed or planned for the possibility of a Russian invasion. It's what armies do.

As others have noted, though, there is more than one way to fight for your country. It is possible that Ukranian forces could be heavily defeated in the field, but put yourself in their shoes. Would you advocate a similar strategy in our homeland should a more powerful enemy threaten us with conventional forces? Or would you fight?

54 posted on 03/18/2014 6:28:28 AM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (Some people meet their heroes. I raised mine. Go Army.)
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To: Girlene

You need the will, the way, the weather and the terrain.

If you do not have control of all of those aspects you will not win.

They do not have the will. Eastern Ukraine would be just as happy being Russian. The locals will not support a bloody conflict.

The Ukrainians do not have the way. Their military could put up a fight, but they will lose in a head to head confrontation with the Russians.

The weather also falls to the Russians. I am sure they have more modern all weather aircraft, night fighting capabilities, and more sophisticated satellite and drone technology.

The terrain is a push.

Logistically, the Russians can replenish their armaments by drawing against their stores. They can get them to the front by rail or air.

When the Ukrainians fire an anti tank missile....that is one less they are going to have.

So, as far as I can see, the Russians win four of five points, and the last point is a push.

The Ukrainians will pull out and either surrender en masse, or beat feet back to the Western part of Ukraine.


55 posted on 03/18/2014 6:29:14 AM PDT by Vermont Lt (If you want to keep your dignity, you can keep it. Period........ Just kidding, you can't keep it.)
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To: jjsheridan5

You don’t get it

You think it will all be alright, that the Soviets aren’t on the march. But they are and there is nothing to stop them. You think they are going to exercise self restraint?

No. They aren’t going to exercise self restraint.


56 posted on 03/18/2014 6:29:53 AM PDT by yldstrk ( My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: Noamie

I have several college classmates that were A-10 pilots. I guess they are lying. Because they all told me about blowing up tanks.


57 posted on 03/18/2014 6:30:22 AM PDT by Vermont Lt (If you want to keep your dignity, you can keep it. Period........ Just kidding, you can't keep it.)
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To: Psalm 73

“...they MUST have some other relatively modern weapons systems. “

Actually, no. In 1994, Clinton signed a trilateral treaty with Ukraine and Russia that stripped Ukraine of all modern weapons in return for the promise that the U.S. would protect their borders and the Russians would “respect” their territory.
Obviously, the only entity that observed the treaty was Ukraine, because both the U.S. and Russia lied.


58 posted on 03/18/2014 6:31:20 AM PDT by txrefugee
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To: grania
Those who consider themselves Russian should not be forced to stay with a government installed by a coup, especially since we now know it wasn't a popular uprising that took over the government.

No, "we" don't know that.
59 posted on 03/18/2014 6:32:45 AM PDT by Girlene (Hey, NSA!)
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To: listenhillary

Looks like they need an update.


60 posted on 03/18/2014 6:34:52 AM PDT by dfwgator
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