0Bama was a foreign Exchange Student?

Root's "report" is definitely plowing up old ground, but this time he is sowing inaccuracies, and stuff that was covered long ago. This is making me very suspicious.

Why would Hairdo Hannity (of all people), Rush, AND Beck coordinate on this old story rather than simply call Sheriff Joe, who has the Mombasa MF dead-to-rights on an easily demonstrable forgery?

Again, why aren't they at all interested in the circumstances leading to Obama's suspension from the Illinois Bar? (Speaking of ancient history) There are now about 9 threads open on this Wayne Allyn Root story. Somethin' ain't right here ... fishy .

Release any info just prior to the convention. That way he can still win yet get bloodied up his own party, wobbling toward the general election as an embarrassed and exposed fraud. (I know he himself is incapable of embarrassment)

This is getting interesting.

Romney better watch out. If he picks Rubio and this explodes, he will have shot himself in the foot.

You are making a lot of assumptions and ignoring the facts. Obama lived in Indonesia from age 6 to 10. He returned to the US and lived in Hawaii thereafter. More than likely, he traveled to and returned from Indonesia using a US passport.

You claim I am "making assumptions" and then YOU state "more than likely he traveled to Indonesia using a US passport"?

Huh? How do YOU know what passport he used when entering and leaving Indonesia? You are just "making an assumption."

It would have been very difficult for him to live with his grandparents other than as a US citizen. The contemperaneous notification in the Hawaiian newspapers of his birth is evidence that the mother and grandparents wanted US citizenship for him, no matter where he may have really been born.

You are not paying attention to what I am saying.

I am not saying he went in and formally renounced his US citizenship before a State Department official and surrendered his US passport. WHAT YOU DON'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT A FORMAL RENUNCIATION IS NOT THE ONLY WAY TO LOSE US CITIZENSHIP UNDER OUR LAW.

If little Barry had an Indonesian passport, how would the US even know? I hope I am not shocking you when I tell you that whenever some country in the world issues a passport to one of its citizens, they do NOT send a letter to the US State Department.

The US State Department has no way of knowing when Indonesia issues a passport to somebody.

Stop and actually think for a moment about what the natural course of events for this family most likely would have been.

When Lolo and Stanley Ann married, they could not look into the future and know that the marriage would break up. They undoubtedly expected that they would be married for the indefinite future and therefore that Lolo and Stanley Ann would together be raising Barry to adulthood.

Also, when Lolo was denied a visa for permanent resident status and told he must leave the United States, their only expectation at that time was that they would be living and raising their family in Indonesia for the indefinite future.

Barry was a very small child at the time of the marriage in 1965, only three years old. We are not talking about a teenager. And Obama Sr. had abandoned him before he was even born.

It would have been a natural step for Lolo to adopt Barry under Indonesian law in order to have full parental authority over him, given that their expectation must have been that Lolo and Stanley Ann were going to raise him in their family in Indonesia until he became an adult.

So we should not be too surprised if Barry gained Indonesian citizenship. If Lolo adopted Barry before he turned five (or if they told the authorities he was not yet five) then they could have automatically registered Barry as an Indonesian citizen.

And indeed, we know that Barry was listed as an Indonesian citizen on his Indonesian school records.

This doesn't mean they notified the US State Department of what they were doing under Indonesian law. And if they didn't notify the US State Department, then as far as US records were concerned, Barry continued to be a US citizen.

If Barry became an Indonesian citizen, and the family expected to live together in Indonesia indefinitely, then it should not surprise us if they also obtained an Indonesian passport for him.

But obviously things took a dramatic turn in a different direction when the marriage started to fall apart. Stanley Ann made a decision that Barry would be better off living with his grandparents in Hawaii and being taught in US schools.

AT THAT POINT, the expectation changed - the expectation was that Barry would then be raised for the indefinite future in the US, with occasional visits from time to time back to Indonesia.

We know from her passport records that Stanley Ann had previously removed Barry from her own passport (in 1967 or 1968 IIRC) and at the time referred to him by an Indonesian name, Soebarkah.

NOW THAT THE SITUATION HAD CHANGED, and he was going to be raised in the United States, it would have been natural for them to go to the US embassy and get a US passport for 10-year-old Barry. Since he had previously appeared on Stanley Ann's passport, undoubtedly, this was not a difficult task. And I very much doubt they would have volunteered the information that as far as Indonesia knew, Barry was an Indonesian citizen and they had in their back pocket a passport issued by Indonesia.

And by the same token, when they went to the US embassy and got a passport for Barry, they probably did NOT call up the Indonesian authorities and tell them what they had done.

If we don't read history backwards, and we think about what would have been the natural decisions this family might have made on the basis that they could not see in the future, it should not be surprising to us if when 10-year-old Barry was sent back to the US to live indefinitely with his grandparents, he traveled on a newly-issued US passport and was planning to live in Hawaii as a US citizen from that time forward. And that he had in his back pocket an old Indonesian passport and that as far as Indonesia was concerned, he was an Indonesian citizen.

And hanging onto his Indonesian passport might have been useful from time to time. He could use it to enter or leave Indonesia. He could use it to travel to other countries if for some reason he did not wish to identify himself as a US citizen. He could use his Indonesian status to hold himself out as a foreign student if he thought it advantageous in applying for college. He could use it to stay for months in Bali while working on his book.

I said: If Obama decided to do some such thing prior to turning 21 in order to hang onto his Indonesian nationality then he likely lost his US nationality under paragraph (1), without even taking into account actions he may have taken under paragraph (2) or paragraph (5). Again, he would have lost his nationality even if no one in the US State Department even knew about it.

You said: Again, lots of assumptions without any facts. And if no one in the State Department knew about it, then he never renounced his citizenship. Certainly, the Indonesians would have such a record if they issued him a passport.

You say that if no one in the State Department knew about it, then he never renounced his citizenship.

Again, let me repeat: FORMALLY RENOUNCING CITIZENSHIP TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT IS NOT THE ONLY WAY TO LOSE US CITIZENSHIP.

I even quoted to you THE OTHER SECTIONS OF THE STATUTE IN EFFECT AT THE TIME. Are you just pretending these other parts of our law do not exist?

If, in those years (which was before our law was relaxed in a number of respects) Obama on his own application obtained Indonesian nationality, then he would have lost US citizenship. Whether or not anyone in the US State Department was told about it.

Similarly, if, in those years Obama was deemed to have made formal allegiance to Indonesia, he would have lost his US citizenship. Whether or not anyone in the US State Department was told about it.

And there were other ways to lose US citizenship, not relevant to Obama. If he had served in the armed forces of a hostile state, he would have lost US citizenship. Whether or not anyone in the US State Department was told about it.

The reality is that it is very difficult to lose your citizenship. There are plenty of SCOTUS cases on the issue

Actually, there are not "plenty" of Supreme Court cases on this issue. But in my view, the legal analysis must start with the Supreme Court opinion in Kawakita v United States. There, the Court, albeit in an earler version of the law (the Nationality Act of 1940), addressed generally matters of expatriation and allegiance. In that case, the appellant had argued the reverse, that is in order to escape a conviction for treason he argued that he had taken actions which had the effect of expatriating himself from the US and making allegiance to Japan. The Court held based on the facts in that case that Kawakita did not expatriate himself and affirmed a conviction for treason. (JFK later pardoned him.) An analysis of the approach and reasoning of the Supreme Court in that case in my view supports a determination that Obama would have expatriated himself if as an adult he obtained or renewed a passport in Indonesia under circumstances where it was clear that to get such a passport one could not be a citizen of another country (even though it is the opposite result reached in Kawakita).

And there are plenty of cases where people tried to renounce their citizenship and it was rejected. Applying for a passport from another country is not ipso facto evidence for loss of citizenship. I bet Rahm Emanuel has or had Israeli citizenship when he served in Israel assisting the Israeli military.

I explained in post 51 earlier in this thread how under our law a situation like Israel is different from Obama's situation in Indonesia.

It may not be all that bad. I have recently had the pleasure of opening the eyes of a committed liberal, a young woman that I work with. She likes to talk about politics, and I've taken the opportunity to talk about Obama's past. I walked her through the birth certificate and the African designation, told her about the sealed files (she googled to check my facts), and finished with the surrendered law licenses. She said that I had shaken her world, and that she could not vote for Obama. She is by no means converted, but at least she sees some of the truth, enough to make her doubt Obama.

So that's how to do it, one on one, slowly, and in great detail. It's not a bumper sticker campaign, but a slow educational process. And it will work sometimes.

You claim I am "making assumptions" and then YOU state "more than likely he traveled to Indonesia using a US passport"? Huh? How do YOU know what passport he used when entering and leaving Indonesia? You are just "making an assumption."

It is more than an assumption that Obama travelled to Indonesia on an American passport. We have Obama's mother's 1965 passport renewal application before she went to Indonesia. It is a virtual certainty that Obama traveled on an American passport--the same way his mother traveled there with her Indonesian husband.

I am not saying he went in and formally renounced his US citizenship before a State Department official and surrendered his US passport. WHAT YOU DON'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT A FORMAL RENUNCIATION IS NOT THE ONLY WAY TO LOSE US CITIZENSHIP UNDER OUR LAW.

Don't you get it? People acquire foreign passports all the time. Dual nationality is recognized by the USG. I provided you with examples of how difficult it is to lose your citizenship even if you formally renounce it. I understand your point, but it is really not something that would cost someone their American citizenship in the real world. It wouldn't be prosecuted.

If little Barry had an Indonesian passport, how would the US even know? I hope I am not shocking you when I tell you that whenever some country in the world issues a passport to one of its citizens, they do NOT send a letter to the US State Department. The US State Department has no way of knowing when Indonesia issues a passport to somebody.

Not shocked at all. I spent 28 years in the State Department as a foreign service officer. I even had a two year posting in Jakarta.

When Lolo and Stanley Ann married, they could not look into the future and know that the marriage would break up. They undoubtedly expected that they would be married for the indefinite future and therefore that Lolo and Stanley Ann would together be raising Barry to adulthood. Also, when Lolo was denied a visa for permanent resident status and told he must leave the United States, their only expectation at that time was that they would be living and raising their family in Indonesia for the indefinite future.

Believe me, there was no way Obama's mother was going to relinquish her American citizenship or that of her son. Obama's half sister, Maya, was born in Indonesia in 1970 and is an American citizen. Adopted or not, Obama would retain his US citizenship, which cannot be renounced by a parent.

But obviously things took a dramatic turn in a different direction when the marriage started to fall apart. Stanley Ann made a decision that Barry would be better off living with his grandparents in Hawaii and being taught in US schools.

Obama's mother abandoned him. No doubt, she preferred getting rid of him to be raised by the grandparents. I can imagine that having a black biracial child whose father was other than that of the husband was embarrassing. From what I have read, Obama was not very close to his mother and more than likely felt that she abandoned him in much the same way as the sperm donor father--if in fact Obama Sr is the real father.

I explained in post 51 earlier in this thread how under our law a situation like Israel is different from Obama's situation in Indonesia.

Nonsense. Israel is not unique. It is fairly easy to obtain an Irish passport if you can show the linkage to forebearers who came from Ireland. There are literally milions of Americans who are dual nationals. I wish we could eliminate it, but once the exception was made for Israel, the floodgates opened wide.

If it could be shown that Obama applied to college as a foreign student and used it as a way to receive preferences for admission and aid, then it would be a big deal politically. Forget about the citizenship issues. The real problem would be political. He wouldn't survive such a disclosure.

One way a student with bad grades could gain entry into 3 ivy league schools, is by claiming to be a foreign exchange student which all college campuses wanted in order to have “increase student diversity”?

I’d believe that. Hey Harvard! I’m a native born Kenyan! Can I get in?

First off, a "foreign exchange student" means you spend a year or so at a college here, but have a university in your home country that you get your degree from. If you got your degree from Columbia, it wasn't as a "foreign exchange student" from somewhere else (though you might have spent a year as a foreign exchange student in some other country).

Secondly, were you even alive thirty years ago? Before all this "globalism" and "diversity" stuff, colleges wanted Black students.

They wanted to demonstrate that they weren't racists. In those days, taking a kid with a claim to be "Afro-American" counted for a lot more than taking somebody with an "exotic" background.

Colleges didn't care so much about getting foreign students except in so far as those students A) could pay their own way or B) help get up the percentages of minority students.

If you were a Black kid from Hawaii who graduated from an exclusive private school and who'd lived for a time abroad, you were gold -- you'd get into schools that a student with similar test scores and grades but without that background wouldn't have a chance at.

The school would want you as a Black student who graduated from Punahou. You wouldn't need to say, "Oh and by the way, I'm an Indonesian, or a Kenyan or whatever."

The fact that you'd lived in Indonesia might be a bonus, but you wouldn't need to say "I am an Indonesian" to reap the benefits of affirmative action -- in fact it would be silly and confusing and maybe counterproductive to make it too complicated.

It is more than an assumption that Obama travelled to Indonesia on an American passport. We have Obama's mother's 1965 passport renewal application before she went to Indonesia. It is a virtual certainty that Obama traveled on an American passport--the same way his mother traveled there with her Indonesian husband.

I agree that the INITIAL trip to Indonesia must have been on his mother’s passport. AFTER THAT you do not KNOW what passport he used to enter or leave Indonesia.

Don't you get it? People acquire foreign passports all the time. Dual nationality is recognized by the USG. I provided you with examples of how difficult it is to lose your citizenship even if you formally renounce it. I understand your point, but it is really not something that would cost someone their American citizenship in the real world. It wouldn't be prosecuted.

I am trying to discuss the details of what the law actually was and how it related to Obama’s particular circumstances. You are just relating superficial generalities. A blanket statement that “people acquire foreign passports all the time” is meaningless. The US allows dual passport holding ONLY IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES and these circumstances HAVE CHANGED OVER TIME AS THE LAW HAS BEEN AMENDED. The question I addressed is what was the law at the time relevant to Obama, what were the actions that might have been taken by him and his family and what might the specific consequences of those actions have been under our law at the relevant times.

Believe me, there was no way Obama's mother was going to relinquish her American citizenship or that of her son. Obama's half sister, Maya, was born in Indonesia in 1970 and is an American citizen. Adopted or not, Obama would retain his US citizenship, which cannot be renounced by a parent.

Are you even reading what I wrote? I never contended she tried to relinquish her own American citizenship or that of Barry. I SAID THE EXACT OPPOSITE: that they may well have tried to have it both ways, dealing with the local Indonesian authorities on adoption and citizenship but not volunteering that information to the US State Department. When their circumstances changed and they wanted Barry to live in the US, they likely went in and got him a US passport at the US embassy, which would have been easy enough to do.

Obama's mother abandoned him. No doubt, she preferred getting rid of him to be raised by the grandparents. I can imagine that having a black biracial child whose father was other than that of the husband was embarrassing. From what I have read, Obama was not very close to his mother and more than likely felt that she abandoned him in much the same way as the sperm donor father--if in fact Obama Sr is the real father.

Maybe, who knows. It is not relevant to the legal points.

Nonsense. Israel is not unique. It is fairly easy to obtain an Irish passport if you can show the linkage to forebearers who came from Ireland. There are literally milions of Americans who are dual nationals. I wish we could eliminate it, but once the exception was made for Israel, the floodgates opened wide.

Huh? Would you please read what I actually wrote. I never said Israel was “unique.” I used Israel as a contrasting example to Indonesia as a country that will issue passports to citizens of other countries. Why are you wasting my time as if I made some claim about Israel being unique?

And once again, you are referring to legal circumstances with respect to dual citizenship as they exist today after our laws have been relaxed which are not necessarily relevant to a discussion of actions taken in the 1960s or late 1970s/early 1980s.

I don’t understand why you choose to argue the other side of this when you don’t offer any basis from which to do so. Your argument consists of ignoring my specific legal points under the INA, mischaracterizing what I am saying in order to rebut the mischaracterization and then you conclude with a breezy “forget about the citizenship issues.” Very disappointing.

I agree that the INITIAL trip to Indonesia must have been on his mother’s passport. AFTER THAT you do not KNOW what passport he used to enter or leave Indonesia.

At age 6, he would have his own passport. His mother never changed citizenship and his half-sister was a citizen via jus sangunis. Obama must have returned at age 10 using his US passpprt. He was returned to the US to live with his grandparents. I seriously doubt he ever had an Indonesian passport.

The US allows dual passport holding ONLY IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES and these circumstances HAVE CHANGED OVER TIME AS THE LAW HAS BEEN AMENDED. The question I addressed is what was the law at the time relevant to Obama, what were the actions that might have been taken by him and his family and what might the specific consequences of those actions have been under our law at the relevant times.

You are the one who seems to think the law has changed significantly. It hasn't. I was stationed in Indonesia 1973-75. Did Obama ever return to Indonesia after age 10?

When their circumstances changed and they wanted Barry to live in the US, they likely went in and got him a US passport at the US embassy, which would have been easy enough to do.

Easy enough to do? How would they prove US citizenship? How did Obama get into Indonesia? Do you think that the Indonesian Embassy in Washington DC would issue a passport to Obama? At age 6, Obama had to have his own passport.

Your argument consists of ignoring my specific legal points under the INA, mischaracterizing what I am saying in order to rebut the mischaracterization and then you conclude with a breezy “forget about the citizenship issues.” Very disappointing.

Your "legal points" are really not relevant. Dual nationality is an accepted fact. Yes, I understand your pedestrian point that Obama's alelged actions could constitute a renunciation of citizenship, but the reality is that it would not be pursued by US authorities. Germany has far stricter laws and will take away citizenship if they find that someone has dual nationality after they are naturalized.

The point you seem to be missing is that the US rarely goes after someone if they hold dual nationality. They just admonish travelers that they cannot guarantee consular protections overseas, especially in the country where the individual has dual nationality other than US. The primary concern is that US citizen requirements are met.

At age 6, he would have his own passport. His mother never changed citizenship and his half-sister was a citizen via jus sangunis. Obama must have returned at age 10 using his US passpprt. He was returned to the US to live with his grandparents.

Once more, I NEVER CLAIMED HIS MOTHER CHANGED CITIZENSHIP. Sheesh, will you stop it with your stupid straw men? Yes, Obama likely entered the US at age 10 using a US passport. I have not and am not arguing otherwise.

I seriously doubt he ever had an Indonesian passport.

You have no basis in fact to know whether he did or did not have an Indonesian passport. The only document which has emerged from Indonesia shows him as an Indonesian citizen. I don’t know in fact whether he was an Indonesian citizen or whether he had an Indonesian passport, but as I have pointed out, if we look at their circumstances back then without the benefit of hindsight it would have been quite natural for them to have obtained Indonesian citizenship for him and even an Indonesian passport.

You are the one who seems to think the law has changed significantly. It hasn't. I was stationed in Indonesia 1973-75.

There is no question that the law has been changed significantly numerous times from the period of the early 1960s to the present time. That is just a fact. It is astonishing that you simply deny this.

Did Obama ever return to Indonesia after age 10?

YES!!! Obama himself has told us he was in Indonesia in the summer of 1981 before his trip to Pakistan. Obama himself has said he went to Indonesia to work on his first book. I think it likely that during his summer vacations growing up someone in his circumstances would from time to time have gone to visit his mother and sister in Indonesia, but obviously we don’t have access to the records to say for certain.

Easy enough to do? How would they prove US citizenship? How did Obama get into Indonesia? Do you think that the Indonesian Embassy in Washington DC would issue a passport to Obama? At age 6, Obama had to have his own passport.

I am talking about Obama getting a US passport WHILE HE WAS LIVING IN INDONESIA at or prior to age 10 after which he would have used it to relocate to Hawaii to live with his grandparents. We know from the FOIA documents that Stanley Ann’s passport issued July 19, 1965 included her child Barry on it because when she filed for a renewal in August 1968 at the embassy in Jakarta SHE FILLED IN THE BOX “AMEND TO INCLUDE (EXCLUDE) CHILDREN” TO EXCLUDE “BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA (SOEBARKAH)”. So he must have been on her passport prior to that. Therefore, it may be that Barry’s first passport in his own name was issued in Jakarta.

But if, as you suggest, he ALREADY HAD a separate one prior to the initial travel to go live in Indonesia (that is, he didn’t initially travel to Indonesia on his mother’s passport) then it would have been easier -- obviously he would have continued to use that one assuming it had not expired.

Your "legal points" are really not relevant. Dual nationality is an accepted fact. Yes, I understand your pedestrian point that Obama's alelged actions could constitute a renunciation of citizenship, but the reality is that it would not be pursued by US authorities. Germany has far stricter laws and will take away citizenship if they find that someone has dual nationality after they are naturalized.

The point you seem to be missing is that the US rarely goes after someone if they hold dual nationality. They just admonish travelers that they cannot guarantee consular protections overseas, especially in the country where the individual has dual nationality other than US. The primary concern is that US citizen requirements are met.

I am not arguing that we SHOULD spend a lot of enforcement resources going after people who hold dual citizenship beyond the circumstances permitted by US law. In any event, we don’t have access to the information in foreign government databases to effectively do so.

This point has to do with one person, BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA II and whether or not he is IN FACT eligible, strictly as a legal matter, under the U.S. Constitution as a citizen (not to mention natural born citizen) of the United States at the time of his election.

Yes, I well understand the difficulty of getting sufficient evidence of what the facts truly are and I well understand the unlikelihood of Congress, which is the only body that could effectively investigate this, taking up this issue.

And by the way FROM YOUR OWN LINK on dual citizenship from the current State Dept web site: “However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship.” Duh.

Once more, I NEVER CLAIMED HIS MOTHER CHANGED CITIZENSHIP. Sheesh, will you stop it with your stupid straw men? Yes, Obama likely entered the US at age 10 using a US passport. I have not and am not arguing otherwise.

I never said you did. The point is that the mother kept her US citizenship despite being married to an Indonesian. Moreover, her child from that relationship, Maya, was also a US citizen. On what basis could Obama claim Indonesian citizenship at the age of majority when his parents were divorcing? Would Indonesia issue a passport to him? On what basis?

There is no question that the law has been changed significantly numerous times from the period of the early 1960s to the present time. That is just a fact. It is astonishing that you simply deny this.

It is astonishing that you can't cite what those changes are. Exactly how has the law changed?

YES!!! Obama himself has told us he was in Indonesia in the summer of 1981 before his trip to Pakistan. Obama himself has said he went to Indonesia to work on his first book. I think it likely that during his summer vacations growing up someone in his circumstances would from time to time have gone to visit his mother and sister in Indonesia, but obviously we don’t have access to the records to say for certain.

"Apparently, according to the Obama campaign, In 1981 — the year Obama transferred from Occidental College to Columbia University — Obama visited his mother and sister Maya in Indonesia. After that visit, Obama traveled to Pakistan with a friend from college whose family was from there. The Obama campaign says Obama was in Pakistan for about three weeks, staying with his friend’s family in Karachi and also visiting Hyderabad in Southern India."

By that time Obama was 20 years old. How many instances did he travel to Indonesia beyond that one time? Do you have a source for your assertion "he went to Indonesia to work on his first book. I think it likely that during his summer vacations growing up someone in his circumstances would from time to time have gone to visit his mother and sister in Indonesia."

I am talking about Obama getting a US passport WHILE HE WAS LIVING IN INDONESIA at or prior to age 10 after which he would have used it to relocate to Hawaii to live with his grandparents.

The mother's passport renewal was 1965 prior to going to Indonesia. Apparently, she had a passport in 1960 since passports were issued for five years a time during that period. That is the real question about her passport renewal. Why did she need a passport at age 17 in 1960?

We know from the FOIA documents that Stanley Ann’s passport issued July 19, 1965 included her child Barry on it because when she filed for a renewal in August 1968 at the embassy in Jakarta SHE FILLED IN THE BOX “AMEND TO INCLUDE (EXCLUDE) CHILDREN” TO EXCLUDE “BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA (SOEBARKAH)”. So he must have been on her passport prior to that. Therefore, it may be that Barry’s first passport in his own name was issued in Jakarta.

No the passport renewal was done prior to leaving for Indonesia. Obama must have received his US passport at the same time since he accompanied his mother to Indonesia.

This point has to do with one person, BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA II and whether or not he is IN FACT eligible, strictly as a legal matter, under the U.S. Constitution as a citizen (not to mention natural born citizen) of the United States at the time of his election.

That must be resolved by SCOTUS. If you accept what the opinion of Tribe and Olson on the eligibility of McCain (requarested by the Senate that issued Resolution 511, jus solis alone is sufficient to be considered a natural born citizen. The definition of natural born citizen must be defined by SCOTUS.

And by the way FROM YOUR OWN LINK on dual citizenship from the current State Dept web site: “However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship.” Duh.

LOL. That is the point I have been making to you all along. As I have said, it is not necessary to renounce overtly one's citizenship if you seek a foreign citizenship. But as I have stated repeatedly, the reality is that the USG will seldom pursue such instances and it is very difficult to lose US citizenship. Court case after court case proves that point.

The significance of Obama's possible claim of foreign citizenship is not the legal issue, but rather, the political problems that would ensue should such a revelation be disclosed. It destroys his personal narrative.

One correction: Obama’s mother applied for the renewal in Jakarta in 1968. I cannot find any source that indicated she requested that her child be removed from the passport.

I never said you did. The point is that the mother kept her US citizenship despite being married to an Indonesian. Moreover, her child from that relationship, Maya, was also a US citizen. On what basis could Obama claim Indonesian citizenship at the age of majority when his parents were divorcing? Would Indonesia issue a passport to him? On what basis?

I’ve already gone through these points as to how Barry might have attained Indonesian citizenship and how and why he might have hung on to it. I know, I know, you don't like to actually read the posts before making a response. The citizenship of his mother and younger sister are not relevant.

It is astonishing that you can't cite what those changes are. Exactly how has the law changed?

Our law on expatriation has been changed in a number of ways over the years, including the change I cited in post 56 above. If you don’t have access to an online legal service go to your local law library. Start with the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952. Then continue with each set of amendments thereafter up to the present day.

By that time Obama was 20 years old. How many instances did he travel to Indonesia beyond that one time? Do you have a source for your assertion "he went to Indonesia to work on his first book. I think it likely that during his summer vacations growing up someone in his circumstances would from time to time have gone to visit his mother and sister in Indonesia."

Look it up yourself. It’s not a hidden fact that he went to Bali to work on his book. You are wasting my time not even reading the posts and not even bothering to look up facts.

No the passport renewal was done prior to leaving for Indonesia.

Wrong. The 1968 renewal in which she removed Barry from her passport was signed by her in “Djarkata.” These documents obtained under FOIA have been on the web for a long time.

And you are wrong again about this being an issue of “natural born” citizen.

This particular issue is whether Obama expatriated himself under the terms of our laws and ceased to be a citizen at all. It has nothing at all to do with Tribe's and Olson’s or anyone else’s opinion on what constitutes “natural born citizen” under the Presidential Eligibility Clause.

I concede my error in believing that the Hague Convention oif 1993 would apply to a Barry Soetero adoption in 1961. Evertything else I said I stand by to include this:

Obama is the living breathing embodiment and personification of the reason for Art II sec 1 clause 5 of the USC. His epistemology and beliefs are foreign and alien to our founding beliefs and constitutional principles. But since both political parties struck a corrupt bargain due to their having ineligible candidates in 2008, culminating in Claire McCaskill’s Senate Resolution 511 giving bipartisan cover for John McCain, we have no nastional political opposition to this Marxist usurper.

The capons in the GOP revealed themselves for the cowards that they are when on 30 July 2012 IA US Rep. Peter King recently announced that the GOP will take up the issue of Obama’s ineligibility after the election. So if he is ineligible NOW than its ally ally oxenfree untill January? I have never beheld such political cowardice in my life. An absolute disgrace!!!

I’ve already gone through these points as to how Barry might have attained Indonesian citizenship and how and why he might have hung on to it. I know, I know, you don't like to actually read the posts before making a response. The citizenship of his mother and younger sister are not relevant.

The Indonesian Citizenship Myth

And you may not consider it "relevant," but the fact that both the mother and daughter retained their US citizenship is indicative of intentions. Again, on what basis could Obama obtain Indonesian citizenhsip?

Look it up yourself. It’s not a hidden fact that he went to Bali to work on his book. You are wasting my time not even reading the posts and not even bothering to look up facts.

If you believe everything that is written in Obama's autobiography, I have a bridge to sell to you. Obama claims to have gone there with Michelle after they were married. If he went there, it was as a tourist and on a US passport. It is not relevant. He also visited Kenya, but that doesn't prove he was born there or used a British passport.

This particular issue is whether Obama expatriated himself under the terms of our laws and ceased to be a citizen at all. It has nothing at all to do with Tribe's and Olson’s or anyone else’s opinion on what constitutes “natural born citizen” under the Presidential Eligibility Clause.

You must be smoking something. He never ceased being a citizen.

Yes, he was a foreign student. Dianna Cotter published an article on Pravda, http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/29-03-2012/120917-barack_obama_foreign_student-0/

Whatever Rep King says, they will never take this up. Why? Because they know darn well case law says otherwise and SCOTUS would toss it in a minute based on evidence currently known. Which would make those backing it look like the tinfoil hat brigade, given that Hawaii has stated 0bama was born there.

Bottom line for the legal case: Children do not lose US citizenship based on actions of their parents. IF he was a US citizen before leaving for Indonesia, that stands whether he was formally adopted by Soetero or not.

Don’t let what you desperately want cloud your analysis. The court will not toss him out. A congressional investigation will go nowhere. The election is the only hope.

“He never ceased being a citizen.”

You assert this as fact? You have absolutely ZERO credibility on this issue.

The only thing you have demonstrated in this thread is:

(1) you have little command of the facts in this case and

(2) you have even more ignorance of the relevant law.

From you, a flat assertion of fact like that is completely worthless.

As for the facts, it is clear from your responses that coming into this thread:

(1) You didn’t even know that Obama traveled to Indonesia in 1981 and had no idea that Obama had ever returned to Indonesia after age 10.

(2) You didn’t know that Obama had traveled to Indonesia to work on his book (and apparently are ignorant of the sources that confirm that trip).

(3) You didn’t know about Stanley Ann’s passport documents or what was in them, including that she renewed her passport in Indonesia and removed Barry from her passport at that time.

As I have shown, much of your responses to me in this thread consist of misstating what I said and then trying to rebut the misstatement.

As for the law:

(1) As you indicated in post 53, you WRONGLY thought the only way for Obama to lose citizenship was to formally renounce it before a state department official. This is a BREATHTAKING IGNORANCE of the pertinent provisions of the law for someone who then goes on to offer such strong opinions on this case.

(2) I pointed out to you that the relevant provisions of law governing what Obama may have done were OTHER paragraphs under Section 1481(a) of the INA:

“taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof”

or

“obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application”

(3) You then continued to pretend these other statutory provisions do not exist, and tried to brush the matter off with vague generalizations like “dual nationality is an accepted fact” (citing as your authority a webpage from the State Dept providing a very general summary for the public) and “people acquire foreign passports all the time.”

The web page itself has no force of law. The law is the language passed by Congress as extant at the relevant times for Obama, which I set forth verbatim in my posts 56 and 57.

Indeed, the very webpage you cite undermines your own breezy statements about “dual nationality is an accepted fact” and “people acquire foreign passports all the time” by stating that “However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship.”

Yes, a person CAN lose U.S. citizenship by acquiring a foreign citizenship. The reason is not because a State Dept employee writes something on a web page. The reason is because of the text of the statute passed by Congress that I cited.

(4) You didn’t even understand the larger legal context of this issue, thinking it has something to do with the debate over what “natural born” means in the Constitution. It has nothing whatsoever to do with that. If Obama is not even a citizen, we don’t even reach the question of what “natural born” means.

Anyone with any intellectual honesty or integrity who had realized he was so woefully ignorant of both the facts and the relevant provisions of law would be at least a bit circumspect in making flat pronouncements. But not you!

And you continue to be unable to grasp what I have told you. The site you cited “The Indonesian Citizenship Myth” rebuts the notion that Obama’s mother or Lolo could have renounced little Barry’s US citizenship for him, and in any event any purported loss due to their action would not have been effective because Obama established residence in the US before age 25.

That’s fine. But THAT IS NOT MY ARGUMENT, as I have told you OVER AND OVER on this thread.

I am not arguing that Barry lost his citizenship because of something his mother or Lolo did on his behalf. You are once again rebutting a straw man.

Yet once again, let me state that I am arguing that Obama may have done something ON HIS OWN APPLICATION AS A YOUNG ADULT, perhaps during or just prior to his college years, such as obtain an Indonesian passport, renew an Indonesian passport or make a formal declaration to the government of Indonesia that he desired to continue to be an Indonesian citizen, in circumstances where Indonesia, unlike countries like Israel and Ireland, required that such a person in effect forswear United States nationality or any other nationality because Indonesia refused to confer such documents or status to someone who was a citizen of the United States or any other country.

If he did so purport to forswear United States nationality, or if what he did would be considered tantamount to obtaining naturalization upon his own application within the meaning of U.S. law, then he may well have lost his United States citizenship by virtue of such action, according to the statutory provisions of our law in effect during that time period. (In this matter, the citizenship status of his mother or of his sister and his mother’s divorce has no legal relevance whatsoever.)

What did Obama actually, in fact do? I DON’T KNOW. Neither do you, contrary to your flat assertion.

Was he adopted by Lolo as a small child? Did he gain Indonesian citizenship status as a child as far as Indonesia was concerned? I don’t know.

But we DO know that the one document that emerged from Indonesia, his school record, shows him as an Indonesian citizen at that time.

And we DO know that the divorce papers for Lolo and Stanley Ann speak of him as the child of both of them, indicative of adoption (although this could be simply sloppy lawyering).

And as I outlined in detail above, if we look at the course of what happened without the benefit of hindsight, it would have been quite natural for someone in Lolo’s position to want to or be willing to adopt for purposes of Indonesian law the toddler son of the woman he married, since by all appearances they would have expected to live the rest of their lives in Indonesia and raise Barry at least to adulthood there. (And in life, circumstances later change due to unforeseen events.)

And then we are led to the question of his college applications and any financial aid papers.

Did he claim Indonesian nationality when he applied to Occidental, or Columbia? I don’t know, these papers are under lock and key.

But there is reason not to dismiss this idea out of hand. For some reason, at Occidental Obama quickly fell into a circle of foreign students as both friends and roommates. Was Occidental under the impression that he also was a foreign student and included him at functions for foreign students? Or was this just a coincidence?

That it might have been advantageous to him to claim status as a foreign student I can well understand, especially if had lousy grades in high school and the only extracurricular activity was basketball. Perhaps just being black was not enough to get him in. I personally recall quite clearly from those years, that at least at elite-level colleges and law schools, there were efforts by many American universities to raise their profile from a national to an international one, by accepting more foreign students to diversify the student body internationally, by establishing exchange and semester abroad programs with foreign universities and by attracting more visiting professors from foreign universities.

If he DID claim Indonesian nationality for those purposes, then the question arises, was he lying or did he actually have a basis for claiming Indonesian citizenship?

And if he was not lying, then that leads us back to the question I raised at the beginning:

Did Obama gain citizenship as a child in Indonesian and then do something as an adult to maintain that status and make use of it? If so, then depending on the circumstances it is quite possible he is not even a citizen at all of the United States.