I Dare

13 June 2012 | Grig (aka TheCrewsayder)

[Grig]

This may be the post that gets me zotted, and if so, so be it, but it would be a nice sign of respect for free speech, and just plain old maturity if that doesn’t happen. I won’t lose sleep either way though.

All through the Clinton years FR played a key role in helping me really come to appreciate the wisdom of the founding fathers as Clinton violated their principles in so many ways. I found here a large community of wise, informed posters from a diverse background that added depth and clarity to the news of the day. It was here on FR that I found out about the WTC attack. Being Canadian, the second amendment always seemed kind of silly to me, but through FR I learned how wrong that view was and now wish my country had such a right for it’s citizens.

That was then, now more and more it has felt like FR has dwindled into an insular, nearly feral, group of political and religious thought police whose mission is to ferret out anybody who doesn’t fit their orthodoxy and get rid of them, while propagandizing against anything the disagree with. At times it feels more energy is spent attacking those who should be seen as allies rather than the true enemies. I used to spend a fair bit of time here each day, now perhaps a quick look once every few weeks because of this change in climate. I know many have left because of it, many have already posted their concerns about it, and their wise observations and suggestions have fallen on deaf ears.

I do feel I have a small measure of responsibility for the change (but no guilt). When FR started to fail to live up to it’s own rules about not bashing religions (when it came to my religion) we Mormon posters decided that instead of being party to the creation of long threads filled with contention that made it hard for the moderators see the difference in our behavior and theirs, we decided instead to simply post articles putting forward our position and leave the critics to show their true colors. (see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2013341/posts). Not only did the anti-Mormon posters oblige us and demonstrate the level of hate and bigotry in their hearts, but so did the anti-Momons within the leadership of FR. And thus began the decent of FR from a vibrant ad-hoc conservative think tank into an echo chamber of yes men with a loud group of religious bigots leading the way. It is sad to see it come to this, and I hope that the day comes when sanity returns. Something that needs to happen for that day to come is for the majority of people around here to face this reality: If you are not supporting Mitt Romney, you are playing into Obama’s hands. Any hopes of a brokered convention or third party conservative super-candidate are nothing but delusions fueled by a denial of reality. It comes down to either Mitt or Obama, and if you are not supporting Mitt you are helping Obama. Deal with it.

And don’t try to hide behind the idea that Mitt losing will be good in the long term for conservatism. That is putting your partisanship above your patriotism. Obama has done massive damage to the USA, and if you give him another 4 years you may not have a USA left at the end of his term. What good will this theoretical transformation of the GOP then? Truth is that if Mitt loses, no matter how conservative or liberal his campaign and policies are, the media will blame it on him being too right-wing and drive the GOP to the left as much as they can. Also, the good of the country should come first if you want to call yourself a patriot, and having Mitt in the White House will be much better for the USA than having Obama there.

While Mitt is not perfect (nobody is) I find many of the attacks on him so over the top, so full of exaggeration and fear mongering that ignores contrary evidence or any sense of proportion that I can’t help but suspect they hyperbole is just a mask for darker motives. The fact that in many cases these attacks come from those who also display great hostility towards Mormonism says it all. Deny it all you want, it is easy to see. For a satirical look at it, check this video I made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG68yz-mMgE

I am going to make some predictions I would like to make, and I hope this thread stays around so that in years to come you can all look back and see how it turned out:

- every conservative you respect will vote for Mitt, all of them (perhaps a couple excepts, but not many) will even endorse him and perhaps campaign with him

- Mitt will become the next POTUS in a landslide victory,

- President Romney will do very well on the economy and on foreign affairs/national security

- President Romney will conduct himself with honor and integrity both in office and in his personal life

- He will be a better president than either Bush was

- You will hear conservative pundits call him this generation’s Ronald Reagan, or Ronald Reagan’s 3rd term or something along those lines

- President Romney will be re-elected in another big victory

- His Vice President will become POTUS after his second term

- If there is an assassination attempt on him, it will either be by the Chineese, or by some religiously motivated nutjob (Islamic or Evangelical)

And for those of you anti-Mormons out there, I have some prediction for you too. And these apply even if Romney is not elected as POTUS:

- Your grandchildren will call Mormons Christians, and look at Mormonism as the third branch of Christianity alongside Catholicism and Protestantism

- All the attacks against Romney that stem from the anti-Mormon garbage you have bought into will result in the attacker either apologizing, or in their loss of credibility. The more anti-Mormon attacks are made in the mainstream media, the worse the attackers will look.

- Your grandchildren will likewise look at such attacks as being as bigoted and wrong, even when they come from you.

- Some of your grandchildren or great-grandchildren will become Mormons, and after you are dead they will have temple ordinances performed for you, and you will be glad at the time that they do.

I dare you to post your own predictions of what a Romney presidency will result in.

I dare FR to leave this thread open and available for comments and to not delete a single comment from it.

I dare FR to start respecting freedom of religion by not playing favorites towards one religious group as is currently done by disallowing Mormon caucus threads, and if that is too big a challenge for you, the do away with the Religion Forum altogether.

I dare you all to give Mormons and Mormonism the respect it deserves to have as the 4th largest denomination in the USA, stalwart defender of traditional values, glowing example of Christian charity at home and around the world, the most conservative people of all religious groups, and staunch defenders of the principles of the constitution and values that built the country. No matter how much you disagree with us on religious matters, we are and should be treated as valuable conservative allies. Until FR does that, all they do is shoot themselves in the foot.

[SES1066]

I regret your feelings / findings of prejudice against Mormons here on FR. Since I am not LDS I must defer to your knowledge about specifics that you have found. While I do not agree with many of the tennants of your faith, to me it is the same as my Jewish, Roman Catholic and Buddhist friends, I take people as I see them and treat them as I want to be treated by them. I will say that my first exposure to LDS history came from a delightful and insightful biographical novel, "Papa Married a Mormon" that I still have in my library.

Having said this, it will probably not surprise you that I hope your predictions will come true, we need this for our future. A Mormon President is no more frightful to me than a Roman Catholic was 52 years ago or a mixed race raving liberal 4 years ago. Uh, I retract that last - he is frightful as a liberal!

[Conservative Vermont Vet]

Rather than reply directly to your post, I'll put my 2 cents here as I have in the past several weeks when some posters have DELUSIONALLY suggested that Mitt is 10 TIMES worst than Dear Leader; that he is more DANGEROUS and a THREAT than O'Bummer; MORE EVIL, and my favorite that a vote for Mittens is "ANTI-CHRISTIAN" and "ANTI-PATRIOTIC."

Opposing Romney cuz he ain't Conservative enough, a RINO, his flip flops, is one thing, (AND I WOULD AGREE) but attacking his religion and inferring he would be worst than the FASCIST, NEO-COMMIE, is beyond the pale!!!

MY RESPONSE:

Mmmm, lets see now, who is more of a "threat" to the safety and security of the United States among these 2?

And of these 2, which is more dangerous to our survival?

The Muslim Brotherhood Creed: “Allah is our objective; the Prophet is our leader; the Quran is our law; Jihad is our way; dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.”

The Muslim Brotherhood Agenda as outlined in 1991 in Phildelphia:

The process of settlement [of Islam in the United States] is a "Civilization-Jihadist" process with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that all their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" their miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who choose to slack.

Though we are all aware of Obama's proclivity towards appeasing Islam and Islamic Republics; his negotiating with our enemies (Taliban); his release of captured Terrorists; his support of the "Arab Spring" in the ME which has led to the takeover of those countries by Radical Islamists; etc, many are not aware of what he has done to facilitate their (Islamists) acceptance and appointment to positions of "trust" within our own Government

Here are but 6 of those individuals:

Rashad Hussain

Kifa Mustapha

Momamed Elibiary

Huma Abedin

Daliah Mogahed

Mohamed Magid

Islam is a frontal attack on Christianity and Judaism and its time we understood this threat and called it what it is. We are not in a “war on terror”, which so many politically correct politicians would have us believe.

The whole world is, and has been for 1,400 years, in a WAR AGAINST ISLAM! If we do not stand up against this cancerous enemy, whose ultimate goal is to bring the entire world into submission to Islam and have all people worship none but Allah, then Western Civilization and human freedom as we know it will soon cease to exist.

America faces in addition to the threat of violent jihad another, even more toxic danger – a stealthy and pre-violent form of warfare aimed at destroying our constitutional form of democratic government and free society. The Muslim Brotherhood is the prime-mover behind this seditious campaign, which it calls “civilization jihad.”

For a detailed description of who these individuals pictured above are, their goals and what damage they have done and the real threat they pose, see the following:

Muslim Brotherhood in America Part 8: Team Obama and the Islamists

IF after viewing this video, one does not come away with the resolve to do whatever it takes to defeat Barack Hussein Obama, then I worry about the future of our Great Republic.

PS: One should at least bookmark this most enlightening, informative, well researched and documented 10-part Series by Frank Gaffney (Muslim Brotherhood in America) and watch all of it as soon as time permits.

SO, when are one of you HATE-MITTENS Freepers going to produce and provide something which is EVEN close to what we KNOW Dear Leader has done to put our Republic in jeopardy and endanger our security and survival?

Waiting......!!!

“I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.” from page 261 of the paperback edition of “The Audacity of Hope.

[norwaypinesavage]

This proud conservative protestant tea party organizer agrees with most every thing you said. It has been very disheartening to see the hate spewing from a couple of dozen hate filled zealots on this site that are advocating near destruction of the country. I proudly support Romney for president with NO qualifications.

[goseminoles]

Who me??

[Grig]

“You’ll have to get it through your head that criticism of Romney does not equal criticism of Mormonism”

I know Romney isn’t perfect, I can make some valid criticisms of him myself, but if you don’t think that there are some whose opposition to Romney is not rooted more in his being Mormon than the rest of it then you are not paying attention.

[I see my hands]

"Mormonism seems a little batty to me"

By definition all religions are batty. That's why they require faith not proof. It's okay.

[mountaineer1997]

I agree with most of the thread starters points. I think it is important to realize that there are many members who will agree with a point of view, but not post their support....internet forums can be discouraging...most have 2 or 3 obnoxious members who work together to derail and insult another member with a contrary point of view.

Solution? Members who agree with another member being attacked may consider posting a positive post to offset the piling on of 2 or 3 obnoxious posters.

[Grig]

“If I remember correctly, you are personally responsible for the infamous “hosing the pigs” thread, that spread such love among FReepers.”

Yes, I’m actually rather proud of that post I made and included a link to it above. If people want to take a metaphor literally to claim offense that is their problem, not mine.

[goseminoles]

When I think of Romney, I don’t think mormon. I think Rino. But that’s what we got. Mormon doesn’t even come to mind..

[muawiyah]

Trust me, the dislike of Romney is predominant. That's what forces some ~ and that's just a handful ~ to venture into criticism of Mormonism.

Ordinarily being a Mormon is just terrifically unimportant to almost everybody (you guys aren't as interesting as the Church of the First Born for example), but your boy is running for President.

That's really serious business. I don't think we should give away the nomination to a RINO under any circumstances.

[Cicero]

Regretably, it is not FreeRepublic that has put the LDS under close examination, but Bishop Romney.

Most of us here used to take the position, live and let live. If Mormons want to believe something different, that’s their choice.

Regretably Romney’s conduct, and the apparent willingness of Mormons to support him no matter how many lies he tells or how many apparently anti-Mormon moral positions he takes—such as support for taxpayer funded abortion and gay marriage while governor of Massachusetts—has led a lot of us to reconsider the matter.

[JeanLM]

I didn’t think Mormons drank alcohol.

I agree with all of this post and hope the predictions come true. However I am not sure the next election will be an easy one for conservatism to win. I rate it very close even though Obama is a disaster. If we all here don’t vote and get others to vote him out, the country is in serious trouble; not that it isn’t already.

On the Mormon issue, I can only say I know quite few Mormons and they are fine upstanding individuals all. The details of their religion don’t concern me. The results in what I see in their personal lives is what counts.

They are all serious people. They work hard and are devoted to family and doing good works. They give generously and live without asking for anything but the freedom to do their thing. What’s not to like? What’s to fear about people who don’t drink or smoke? Who support charities? Are good at business and support education?

I’d say a man who is a Mormon like the ones I know, makes a better president than what we have now, by a wide margin.

[A.Hun]

You'll have to get it through your head that criticism of Romney does not equal criticism of Mormonism or individual Mormons,

What bs....the bigotry shown here by "Christians" is horrible. It only reinforces the lib's worst caricatures of the religious right. Mods would never allow Jews or Catholics to be attacked the way Mormons are.

Its shameful, and has driven many Freepers away. Maybe you can't see it, but more likely, you just don't want to.

This OP is right to call FR on it.

[TruthFactor]

That picture actually makes me sick. ABO

[rogue yam]

I hope this thread does not get pulled.

The changes that have come to FR over the last few months are stark and (I believe) bad for FR and bad for America.

I am a Christian and I do not believe that Mormonism is a Christian sect. I think that it is an entirely different religion and/or cult. I hope that Mormonism ends on its own accord, and the sooner the better.

I will campaign for Romney and I'll vote for him in November. I think that it is obvious that America will be better served by a Romney Presidency than it will by four more years of Obama.

I despise the way the FR He-Man Mitt Haters Club has polluted the political discourse around here. It is a disgrace. In the past, political discussions were largely about information, analysis, and tactics. Now every political thread is hijacked by those waging jihad against Romney. This is a waste of precious opportunities.

When things first started going sideways around here, I called right to the top for clearer guidance. None was forthcoming. The so-called "truce" helped a bit but it was really too little, too late.

Some folks have left. Some were zotted. Participation in political analysis threads seems way down from where it ought to be, by my estimation.

The last FReepathon dragged on. The next one starts in two short weeks. I wonder what it will bring.

I would like to see things get better around here but I don't know how this can happen.

Some people here hate Mormonism so much that it prevents them from giving Romney any rational consideration as a candidate, and it further prevents them from leaving space for those who choose to support the GOP nominee for whatever reason.

I think Mormonism is a false religion. But I think that the American political process must allow for adherents of different faiths to work together to defend and preserve our Constitutional Republic. To me the Constitution comes first within the political sphere. I consider this a form of rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

[goseminoles]

Good post. I agree..it is what it is...im a proud tea party member. My goal is to get Obama out! :)

[muawiyah]

You still have to come up with some reason for folks to vote for your boy. Absent that all you have is "he's not obama" and that's not likely to get us any crossover votes from people who don't see why that's meaningful?

They'll be wondering "does that dude mean he's white?"

We need hard core issues people can relate to ~ something to campaign with ~ otherwise it looks like your boy intends to try to win with negative TV ads in selected markets.

Get real.

[Third Person]

Romney is a lying liberal pro-abortion weasel. His Mormonism is not the issue, but it certainly provides a nice excuse for those who would like to deflect attention away from his record... “Those intolerant FReepers don’t like Mitt because he’s Mormon!”

[saywhatagain]

interesting thoughts and challenge

The left are quick to say that any criticism of Obama is rooted in racism.

Those who raise the level of conversation to ideology and facts, of course know that's poppycock.

Those that say the same of Mittens, criticism is rooted in his belief of Mormonism, hopefully will take a deep breath before speaking.

[Grig]

“This OP is right to call FR on it.”

Wow, I’m impressed that so many are willing to post in support and likewise call FR on it. Thanks everybody!