What's the MO? Destroy the native's means of survival, drive them from their land, herd them into 'refugee' camps (as this one in the North of Kenya,) and presto, instant 'rebel' army?
Posted on 10/25/2011 5:39:27 PM PDT by Cardhu
Two Kenyan jet fighters have crashed after colliding over southern Somalia, Press TV reports.
The two fighter planes crashed between the towns of Kismayu and Qooqani, a Somali military officer told the Press TV correspondent in Mogadishu on Tuesday.
The jets were heading to the southern port city of Kismayu after targeting the positions of al-Shabab fighters in southern Somalia, the officer added.
On Monday, a Kenyan jet bombed an al-Shabab base near the port in Kismayu, an al-Shabab stronghold.
Kenyan troops began an air and ground offensive against al-Shabab in southern Somalia last week after Nairobi accused the militants of being behind several kidnappings of foreigners carried out on its territory, including the abduction of a French woman who later died in captivity. However, the militant group has denied involvement in the incidents.
Kenyan troops are now preparing for a new operation, in which they will attempt to capture the key southern town of Afmadow, which is controlled by al-Shabab.
The Somali government has said it is "unacceptable" for Kenyan forces to be in Somalia without Mogadishu's approval.
That’s a negative, Ghostrider. They’re MiG-28s. I saw one up close while in a negative g pushover. I could tell you about it, but I’d have to kill ya.
Thanks Cardhu.
Say what? Those must be recent acquisitions.
The Kenyan pilots likely were Christian. About 80% of Kenyans are Christian.
Agreed, but today I imagine a pair of Raptors could render the Kenyan Air Force defunct in five minutes.
LOL! I’m face palming myself. I finally got it.
Wow, Kenya has jet fighters..
You meant “had” fighter jets
What's the MO? Destroy the native's means of survival, drive them from their land, herd them into 'refugee' camps (as this one in the North of Kenya,) and presto, instant 'rebel' army?
Do you mean the USAF Hangan Queen Raptors?
The ones that have been grounded, again, after the fleet had just been cleared after a three month grounding? Those Raptors? Bwwwaahaha!!!
F-5s have always looked like T-38s or F-20 Tigersharks.
I imagine it could be done by a pair of F-18s or F-16s.
Their navy has a couple of ex-US Coast Guard cutters, a couple of WW2-era destroyer escorts, and a handful of semi-modern gunboats. The Air Force's top aircraft is a light squadron of 25-year old Italian trainers/light attack craft, plus a squadron of Vietnam-era OV-10 Bronco light attack craft.
Their troops are top notch and do amazing things with the junk equipment they have, but it is stunning the lack of support they've received from Washington, considering the importance of the Philippines in the War on Terror and in keeping China in check.
They are fighting Muslims affiliated with al-Qaeda.
So how can the "the lack of support they've received from Washington" be stunning?
When has this President ever favored an ally at radical Islamist expense?
If I’m not mistaken, the F-5 and the T-38 are essentially the same airframe.]
I was at an airshow on a USAF base once, years ago, and saw the hulk of a scrapped T-38 off in the weeds. It was remarkably small and lightly built.
Actually, if it was necessary to send Raptors to bring down a medley of Northrop F-5s and Hawk Trainers, then something definitely went wrong somewhere. For one, F-16s (even Block 40s) would be more than sufficient, but more importantly Kenya has been a HUGE supporter in the War on Terrorism (in the horn of Africa region), with several units of US, UK and Israeli armed services basing a lot of activity from Kenya (going back to the 1960s ...all the way to the Shifta wars in Somalia when radical Islam first started coming up, which was before modern Islamic radicalism started to ferment in the Middle East). Thus, it is difficult to conceptualize why a pair of F-22s would be trying to bring down the KAF in 5 (or however number of) minutes.
However, if it pleases you, yes. In 5 minutes a pair of Raptors could thoroughly decimate the Kenyan airforce. For that matter, and to spice it up, modernized F-4 Phantoms (like the 2020 with AMRAAMs) could do it just as easily - maybe in 10 minutes.
How does a front line state like Kenya justify having a dozen F-5’s as its premier fighter?
The F-5s that Kenya has have always been more than enough for it for the last several decades. For the longest time those F-5s were the most advanced fighting force in Central and East Africa by far, and matched what was present at the time in West Africa (to get something more advanced one had to go to Egypt, with tis F-16s, or south to South Africa, with its Cheetahs and now the Gripen C/D). Thus, for the longest time the F-5s were not only sufficient but more than enough. To this add the fact that Kenya has generally been left untouched by the various regional conflagrations that took place (e.g. the bush wars in Uganda, the idiocy in Somalia, the Ethiopia-Eritrea war, the Ethiopia-Somalia war, the Tanzania-Uganda war to smack Idi Amin, etc), and thus it was not a real necessity to get something better. However, certain changes in the region occured beginning with the Ethiopia-Eritrea war, whereby both nations started purchasing advanced 4th generation fighters. Ethiopia got some SU-27s (flown by Russian mercenaries at the beginning) and Eritrea got some MiG-29s (flown by Ukranian mercenaries), with the Russian mercs/Flanker combination proving far superior to the Ukranian mercs/Fulcrum combination. The Sudanese also went and purchased some Russian equipment (I believe Flankers were also part of that deal). Then, just earlier this year, Uganda decided to spend a lot of their funds to purchase 6 (I am 99% sure it was 6) SU-30MKK Flankers. Thus, the Kenyan airforce of F-5s became basically obsolete! As a stop-gap measure the Kenyan airforce purchased some additional F-5s from Jordan (Jordan was selling some upgraded F-5s (the F-5EM), with some going to Brazil and the rest to Kenya), which had a more developed radar, avionics and the like. However, this was only meant to be a stop-gap measure while the Kenyans looked for something to keep it on par with the rest of the region (considering it is the largest economy by far in East and Central Africa, and one of the largest economies in Africa, it wouldn't have been too long before it got something to at least bring it to parity with its neighbors. F-5s are nice jets, but their retirement days came some time back).
Now, there was a strong rumor that there were negotiations for some Air National Guard F-15s from the US, but that was quickly put under wraps and I do not know what happened to it (the story came out via WikiLeaks, meaning that unless there is WikiLeaks 2.0 it is impossible to know what happened to that). That would probably be First Prize, and there are big similarities between a SU-27/30 and F-15s (and the ANG F-15s are not necessarily the newest aircraft in the world, and cannot at all be compared with the new F-15 variants like the F-15K and F-15SG sold to South Korea and Singapore respectively). Thus, it is possible ...however I would not hold my breath on that (I am sure even on FR there would be some people having issues with selling 20 year old F-15s to Kenya just because it is ...I don't know, has bugs?). Obviously Kenya could very easily get SU-30s (and easily afford them), but due to its several decade association with the West that is an option that is unfortunately not available to them (I say unfortunately because the SU-30 with the right avionics would be quite a capable plane, and because it is virtually impossible to get something analogous from the West). Thus, because of its associations with the West, the Kenyan military would probably not opt for Flankers.
I also say unfortunately because there is a chance the airforce may be forced to opt for Chinese jets, in particular the JF-17. The JF-17 is a cheap but capable jet that is more or less at F-16 Block40 level (or thereabouts), and comes with a decent radar/avionics and decent weapons (including proper BVR capability). Did I mention cheap? Considering China's (rapidly) increasing involvement in Africa, if the story of the two F-5s crashing is true, I am sure at this very moment there is a Chinese delegation having talks with the Kenyan government. Is the JF-17 capable? Yes it is, and would suit Kenya's needs, but that would just be one more additional nugget to China's coffers that does not need to happen. Especialy considering Kenya's history with the West (and Israel - actually it played a critical role during the Entebbe crisis that endeared it a lot with the Israeli government since then).
Anyways - what is my wish list? I hope the F-15 wikileaks rumor is true, but I doubt anything will come out of it. Which obviously brings the number 2 prize, which would be the purchase of second-hand F-16s (there are many F-16 users in the world, and some of them are preparing to upgrade to newer fighters). That is the most common-sense option (a simpler single-engine capable aircraft that provides Kenya with an ability to be at parity with its neighbors as well as keeping it within the nexus of the West), but as we all know common-sense is not common. If F-16s were to be approved for Kenya I would eat my hat (even though they get approved for, say, Egypt and Pakistan). Too much common sense in that, which almost automatically precludes it from happening. There was also an option of purchasing Kfirs from Israel (which would have easily sold them to Kenya with no concerns due to the history - a lot of Kenyan military is trained in Israel, the Uk, and the US - Kenya's Rangers battalion, roughly equivalent in concept to the US Rangers, finished training some months back at Ft Benning), but those aircraft are also quite old (and have been worked hard), and anyways Israel just sold them to some South American country I cannot recall at present.
Which, unfortunately, leaves Kenya with three options. One) Stay with the F-5s (even as they age more and more, and neighbors like Uganda, Ethiopia and Sudan are operating Flankers); two) purchase Flankers from Russia (a good option of getting a NEW plane that is roughly equivalent to all but the latest F-15 variants, but which will not happen due to Kenya's relationship with the West even when it cannot get 20 year old equivalents from the West); or three) purchase Chinese cr@p...I mean, Chinese airplanes (in particular the JF-17 becomes a strong option, which is unfortunate since it is not as good as a F-16/15;SU-27/30). There are other outlier options (such as getting Gripens, the C/D model, from the few countries that operate them that want to upgrade to either the Gripen NG or the JSF), but those are outliers.
That's the lay on the ground, and that is why Kenya is still operating F-5s. The perfect plane a decade or two ago would have been the F-20 TigerShark, but that concept was aborted many many many moons ago (before I was born even). With the F-20 out of the picture, the next best solution would be the F-16, but as I mentioned that makes too much sense.
Thus expect the Kenyan airforce to probably be operating Chinese fighter jets this time next year. The Kenya Army is already operating attack versions of the Chinese Z-9, so that shift is slowly but surely starting to take place. And that is unfortunate if you ask me. There is still some struggle here and there (e.g. a couple of years back the Army had started to receive AK-47s - it has always used G-3s - but that was changed and the Army will maintain its G-3s, with the AKs going to some of the police forces, and a couple years ago M-16s/M-4s were distributed to sections of the Army. The M-16 will probably be the way ahead for the Army).
Anyways ZhangFei, let me try and clarify the story of the two aircraft crashing. Not been reported yet here. If true it is sad, most of all because of the pilots but also because (in percentage terms) that is a huge loss to the Kenya airforce.
As for the Somali conflict - the Kenyan forces have basically stormed through the southern part of the country unopposed by Al Shabaab. Those who shot back died (looking back at the Shifta wars of the late 60s, the Kenyan army has more or less had a no prisoners approach to folks who shoot at it). The port city of Kismayu (where Shabaab gets millions of Dollars monthly from piracy activities) has been captured as well. In the first couple days they had established a 100km zone into Somalia from the Kenya border. Generally a success, with the only downpoint being the Somali president changing his mind about Kenya being there (although his own government has said the president is not speaking for them and the Kenyans should continue their presence - there was a demonstration yesterday by Somalis against their president for those comments). Al Shabaab had stated they will have retaliatory attacks on Nairobi. Consequently the Kenyan capital of Nairobi was hit by two grenade attacks this Monday and Tuesday that injured 30 and killed one. My opinion is if Ethiopia was to step up pressure from the North, and Kenya continues pressure from the South, that Al Shabaab will be destroyed. Unlike the US that would be burdened by constant reports from CNN and ABC/NBC/CBS about 'rules of war' and all that nice stuff, the Kenyans and Ethiopians would basically eradicate the Al Shabaab from the area.
Anyways, going back to the jets issue, I hope the story is not true (but I highly suspect it is considering the jets are VERY OLD and this is the most strenuous activity those airframes have had to engage in in decades). Quite sad. It is also unfortunate that the next fighter jet Kenya will have will be the first that is not either British or American.
a) The source. It is an Iranian broadcasting agency, and I think it may be prudent to wait until more credible news outlets report (or don't report) on this. If the BBC or CNN reports on it then it happened. For now only this Iranian source is reporting on it.
b) Bias - the source seems to have some bias in its reporting. For instance it claims that 'The Somali government has said it is "unacceptable" for Kenyan forces to be in Somalia without Mogadishu's approval.' That is simply not the case. The real story is that the Somali president (a chap called Sheikh Sharif Ahmed) said yesterday that Kenya shouldn't have come in (even though last week he was the same one who was ok with it). When he made those comments his own government said otherwise, with one military official (a Yasin Warfa) saying that 'The Somali government does not support Al Shabaab. It is only the president and that will be resolved.' At the same time 'hundreds of demonstrators' went to the streets in a Somali town called Dhobley waving Kenyan and Somali flags and burning pictures of the Somali president. One of their elders said 'Kenya do not believe the words of our weak, mad president. Please fight Al Shabaab and go deep into Somalia.'
Thus, I wonder about the angle the Iranian agency is trying to portray.
Anyways, while it is possible that the jets did crash, I think it is prudent to wait until a more credible news outlet reports on it. Iranian news agencies rank quite low on my list of news channels to watch.
My experience with other services is more limited than yours, I was a wrench turner. I did go to school with some Iranian sailors. Nice guys but they seemed to be in the states more for the party than learning anything. JMSDF troops were Sierra Hotel even if their aircraft were a little dated. ROKs seemed real good as well, but I learned later (from ROKs who did not participate) that their units that participate in Team Spirit were hand picked where we were picked solely because we were handy.
The only time I saw any Singapore military was when some of their senior officers were wandering around the flight deck watching the air show we put on for them. Beside the usual stuff, we blew up a bunchaton of fish with some Mark 83s and shot down a flare. The Singaporean medal racks didn’t impress me, but then I am not easily impressed by medal racks of any service/nation. I don’t doubt their pilots and ground personnel are good, but I never saw any of those guys.
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