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To: buccaneer81; Blood of Tyrants; Zhang Fei; Cardhu; sukhoi-30mki; TaMoDee
Agreed, but today I imagine a pair of Raptors could render the Kenyan Air Force defunct in five minutes.

Actually, if it was necessary to send Raptors to bring down a medley of Northrop F-5s and Hawk Trainers, then something definitely went wrong somewhere. For one, F-16s (even Block 40s) would be more than sufficient, but more importantly Kenya has been a HUGE supporter in the War on Terrorism (in the horn of Africa region), with several units of US, UK and Israeli armed services basing a lot of activity from Kenya (going back to the 1960s ...all the way to the Shifta wars in Somalia when radical Islam first started coming up, which was before modern Islamic radicalism started to ferment in the Middle East). Thus, it is difficult to conceptualize why a pair of F-22s would be trying to bring down the KAF in 5 (or however number of) minutes.

However, if it pleases you, yes. In 5 minutes a pair of Raptors could thoroughly decimate the Kenyan airforce. For that matter, and to spice it up, modernized F-4 Phantoms (like the 2020 with AMRAAMs) could do it just as easily - maybe in 10 minutes.

How does a front line state like Kenya justify having a dozen F-5’s as its premier fighter?

The F-5s that Kenya has have always been more than enough for it for the last several decades. For the longest time those F-5s were the most advanced fighting force in Central and East Africa by far, and matched what was present at the time in West Africa (to get something more advanced one had to go to Egypt, with tis F-16s, or south to South Africa, with its Cheetahs and now the Gripen C/D). Thus, for the longest time the F-5s were not only sufficient but more than enough. To this add the fact that Kenya has generally been left untouched by the various regional conflagrations that took place (e.g. the bush wars in Uganda, the idiocy in Somalia, the Ethiopia-Eritrea war, the Ethiopia-Somalia war, the Tanzania-Uganda war to smack Idi Amin, etc), and thus it was not a real necessity to get something better. However, certain changes in the region occured beginning with the Ethiopia-Eritrea war, whereby both nations started purchasing advanced 4th generation fighters. Ethiopia got some SU-27s (flown by Russian mercenaries at the beginning) and Eritrea got some MiG-29s (flown by Ukranian mercenaries), with the Russian mercs/Flanker combination proving far superior to the Ukranian mercs/Fulcrum combination. The Sudanese also went and purchased some Russian equipment (I believe Flankers were also part of that deal). Then, just earlier this year, Uganda decided to spend a lot of their funds to purchase 6 (I am 99% sure it was 6) SU-30MKK Flankers. Thus, the Kenyan airforce of F-5s became basically obsolete! As a stop-gap measure the Kenyan airforce purchased some additional F-5s from Jordan (Jordan was selling some upgraded F-5s (the F-5EM), with some going to Brazil and the rest to Kenya), which had a more developed radar, avionics and the like. However, this was only meant to be a stop-gap measure while the Kenyans looked for something to keep it on par with the rest of the region (considering it is the largest economy by far in East and Central Africa, and one of the largest economies in Africa, it wouldn't have been too long before it got something to at least bring it to parity with its neighbors. F-5s are nice jets, but their retirement days came some time back).

Now, there was a strong rumor that there were negotiations for some Air National Guard F-15s from the US, but that was quickly put under wraps and I do not know what happened to it (the story came out via WikiLeaks, meaning that unless there is WikiLeaks 2.0 it is impossible to know what happened to that). That would probably be First Prize, and there are big similarities between a SU-27/30 and F-15s (and the ANG F-15s are not necessarily the newest aircraft in the world, and cannot at all be compared with the new F-15 variants like the F-15K and F-15SG sold to South Korea and Singapore respectively). Thus, it is possible ...however I would not hold my breath on that (I am sure even on FR there would be some people having issues with selling 20 year old F-15s to Kenya just because it is ...I don't know, has bugs?). Obviously Kenya could very easily get SU-30s (and easily afford them), but due to its several decade association with the West that is an option that is unfortunately not available to them (I say unfortunately because the SU-30 with the right avionics would be quite a capable plane, and because it is virtually impossible to get something analogous from the West). Thus, because of its associations with the West, the Kenyan military would probably not opt for Flankers.

I also say unfortunately because there is a chance the airforce may be forced to opt for Chinese jets, in particular the JF-17. The JF-17 is a cheap but capable jet that is more or less at F-16 Block40 level (or thereabouts), and comes with a decent radar/avionics and decent weapons (including proper BVR capability). Did I mention cheap? Considering China's (rapidly) increasing involvement in Africa, if the story of the two F-5s crashing is true, I am sure at this very moment there is a Chinese delegation having talks with the Kenyan government. Is the JF-17 capable? Yes it is, and would suit Kenya's needs, but that would just be one more additional nugget to China's coffers that does not need to happen. Especialy considering Kenya's history with the West (and Israel - actually it played a critical role during the Entebbe crisis that endeared it a lot with the Israeli government since then).

Anyways - what is my wish list? I hope the F-15 wikileaks rumor is true, but I doubt anything will come out of it. Which obviously brings the number 2 prize, which would be the purchase of second-hand F-16s (there are many F-16 users in the world, and some of them are preparing to upgrade to newer fighters). That is the most common-sense option (a simpler single-engine capable aircraft that provides Kenya with an ability to be at parity with its neighbors as well as keeping it within the nexus of the West), but as we all know common-sense is not common. If F-16s were to be approved for Kenya I would eat my hat (even though they get approved for, say, Egypt and Pakistan). Too much common sense in that, which almost automatically precludes it from happening. There was also an option of purchasing Kfirs from Israel (which would have easily sold them to Kenya with no concerns due to the history - a lot of Kenyan military is trained in Israel, the Uk, and the US - Kenya's Rangers battalion, roughly equivalent in concept to the US Rangers, finished training some months back at Ft Benning), but those aircraft are also quite old (and have been worked hard), and anyways Israel just sold them to some South American country I cannot recall at present.

Which, unfortunately, leaves Kenya with three options. One) Stay with the F-5s (even as they age more and more, and neighbors like Uganda, Ethiopia and Sudan are operating Flankers); two) purchase Flankers from Russia (a good option of getting a NEW plane that is roughly equivalent to all but the latest F-15 variants, but which will not happen due to Kenya's relationship with the West even when it cannot get 20 year old equivalents from the West); or three) purchase Chinese cr@p...I mean, Chinese airplanes (in particular the JF-17 becomes a strong option, which is unfortunate since it is not as good as a F-16/15;SU-27/30). There are other outlier options (such as getting Gripens, the C/D model, from the few countries that operate them that want to upgrade to either the Gripen NG or the JSF), but those are outliers.

That's the lay on the ground, and that is why Kenya is still operating F-5s. The perfect plane a decade or two ago would have been the F-20 TigerShark, but that concept was aborted many many many moons ago (before I was born even). With the F-20 out of the picture, the next best solution would be the F-16, but as I mentioned that makes too much sense.

Thus expect the Kenyan airforce to probably be operating Chinese fighter jets this time next year. The Kenya Army is already operating attack versions of the Chinese Z-9, so that shift is slowly but surely starting to take place. And that is unfortunate if you ask me. There is still some struggle here and there (e.g. a couple of years back the Army had started to receive AK-47s - it has always used G-3s - but that was changed and the Army will maintain its G-3s, with the AKs going to some of the police forces, and a couple years ago M-16s/M-4s were distributed to sections of the Army. The M-16 will probably be the way ahead for the Army).

Anyways ZhangFei, let me try and clarify the story of the two aircraft crashing. Not been reported yet here. If true it is sad, most of all because of the pilots but also because (in percentage terms) that is a huge loss to the Kenya airforce.

As for the Somali conflict - the Kenyan forces have basically stormed through the southern part of the country unopposed by Al Shabaab. Those who shot back died (looking back at the Shifta wars of the late 60s, the Kenyan army has more or less had a no prisoners approach to folks who shoot at it). The port city of Kismayu (where Shabaab gets millions of Dollars monthly from piracy activities) has been captured as well. In the first couple days they had established a 100km zone into Somalia from the Kenya border. Generally a success, with the only downpoint being the Somali president changing his mind about Kenya being there (although his own government has said the president is not speaking for them and the Kenyans should continue their presence - there was a demonstration yesterday by Somalis against their president for those comments). Al Shabaab had stated they will have retaliatory attacks on Nairobi. Consequently the Kenyan capital of Nairobi was hit by two grenade attacks this Monday and Tuesday that injured 30 and killed one. My opinion is if Ethiopia was to step up pressure from the North, and Kenya continues pressure from the South, that Al Shabaab will be destroyed. Unlike the US that would be burdened by constant reports from CNN and ABC/NBC/CBS about 'rules of war' and all that nice stuff, the Kenyans and Ethiopians would basically eradicate the Al Shabaab from the area.

Anyways, going back to the jets issue, I hope the story is not true (but I highly suspect it is considering the jets are VERY OLD and this is the most strenuous activity those airframes have had to engage in in decades). Quite sad. It is also unfortunate that the next fighter jet Kenya will have will be the first that is not either British or American.

38 posted on 10/26/2011 12:56:08 AM PDT by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: spetznaz

Thanks for that very detailed update.


46 posted on 10/26/2011 3:15:37 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.)
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