(LIVE THREAD!) Republican Presidential Debate #4 - Sep. 7, 2011 8pm/5pm: Reagan Library, CA (MSNBC)

You should change your moniker to “Delusional Woman”. Fits.

Awwwww reduced to personal insults now? A sure sign the battle is over.

Take care

Just took a clue from you Queenie.

Just tracking back! Great to see your posts on the threads. Always great to read.

I would love to see that debate. There is no doubt that Newt is really smart and in command of the facts. Given that every candidate has strikes against them, I agree that it is way too early to dismiss Newt and say he had too much baggage. We need to watch things unfold.

Another person not invited was Buddy Roemer, former Louisiana governor and Congressman. Recently I heard him give an interesting speech/history lesson on the role of tarriffs in financing the American government. Basically his view was we eliminated most tarriffs when we were the richest most powerful country in the world. Now that China has much of our debt and India and Brazil are starting to roll, we need to protect our production. Tarrifs should be based on the degree to which the exporting country follows child labor laws, environmental safeguards, etc. similar to our own. People who don’t do those things should be charged higher tarrifs.

Also, here is liberal view of what was said in the debates. I know, I know, but one must also know what the other side thinks.

http://mail.aol.com/34078-111/aol-6/en-us/Suite.aspx

Wow – and without surprise, I was very impressed with all of the candidates. The only thing that actually surprised me is that, every last one of them had won over my vote at any given point during the debate. I am literally overwhelmed, and without the nerve to say which one I could exclusively “pull the lever” for.

I am getting old now, but I am intelligent, worldly, and aware. I have to say, if a winner was declared in the debate I would think that the winner would be Newt Gingrich in my humble opinion. But whoever the Republicans choose, all of these candidates are so intelligent, and so ready to lead, that any one of them would be a wonderful next President of the United States.

Because I feel Newt “won” the debate (or, perhaps a better word for it would be deserves the “gold star” for the most excellent responses to the moderators), does that mean I am going to vote for him in the Republican Primary in the State of California? Maybe I will – but it is just too hard, too difficult, too many fine candidates … I am stunned.

For example, I have ragged on Perry and Huntsman, both of whom I have differences with. But both showed some real “wow” factors in the debate. While I am not so sure about Huntsman’s stand in regards to the War on Terror (one of my four critical issues, which in order are jobs/economy first, WOT and military readiness second, illegal immigration third, and crime fourth), I do have to say he went up several notches in stature in regards to a personal liking towards his candidacy.

But so did Romney, I was impressed and also his comments regarding Social Security, while I am more aligned towards introducing a private option to men and women entering the workforce, I think his tone and message on this question would also win a lot of votes from the elderly who frankly would be targets for the Democratic Party campaign of fear. As for the other issues Romney responded on, he did an outstanding job in communicating his message, and also he made me feel relaxed and confident in his leadership.

Of course Bachmann did as well. She also has that quality that she will take a measured, but confident tone and provide the solutions we seek for America, without becoming a screaming electric banjo if you will.

I think Santorum should have been given a little more time to respond to questions, he did an outstanding job. Cain was able to inject his responses, which I did not have a problem with since every response from him really connected with me. Paul, was captivating – you know he is right, but you know we won’t listen to him.

So who am I going to vote for in the Primary after this debate?

Hell if I know. I am leaning – by a very thin thread – towards Romney. But, I may in vote for Newt. I liked Huntsman’s demeanor at the debate, but the “pull the troops home” stand felt more like a 1960’s Peacenik flower power thing to me than, for example, a more reasoned objection to the war(s) that came from a Ron Paul for example. Don’t get me wrong, I liked most of what Huntsman said and my impression of him has changed a lot to the positive and I wouldn’t hold this against him – but … tied for second for me would probably be Newt and Bachmann … but man, I liked them all.

So no, I haven’t decided yet. Because they all have my vote. They are all outstanding examples of Republican candidacy, all Republicans should be proud of all of them (even if Perry and Romney went at each other a bit, which is to be expected)…

I suppose in the end, even though I was more impressed with Perry than I thought I would be (very much so actually), if it were between him and Romney I think I am leaning Romney.

So come and get me Perry supporters, I will vote for whom I want. But no matter which Republican is chosen by my fellow Republicans, I will honor that choice and give my heart (and money) to that selection to defeat Obama. I respect the good choice of my fellow Republicans, especially this time around in that, just see who they have already brought to us to run for the office – they have brought us gemstones everyone of them. I am so proud to be a Republican.

If the economy doesn’t improve and unemployment is still above 8 percent I have a hard time believing Obama will “walk away” in the election. He might do so in California and New York, but I’m not so sure he will do so in Indiana, Virginia, North Carolina, or Ohio and many of the others that GWB carried in 2004.

Don’t feel bad about watching MSNBC. I couldn’t find the debate this evening at a friends house, so ended up watching Al Jazeera. They actually had rather good coverage of the Texas fires.

If the media is able to expose the alternative as unacceptable to enough voters he will.

“Look out for what he tries to do when he officially becomes a lame duck pResident.”

Nothing like what he’ll do - unfettered - if we give him another four years. It’s unthinkable. THIS terms seems like an eternity. We have it in our power to prevent that if we play it smart.

I’ll vote for any opponent of BHO next November. And do what I can toward a more conservative, R-controlled Senate and House.

My sons are 37 and 41, even if nothing is done to the current SS system, they (and YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS) would still get about an 80% payment. What you KNOW is wrong. One problem is that the very rich don’t pay as big a percent of their income as the less well off. The amount of income on which you have to pay into SS is the amount that 90% of the population earns. That limit is currently $108,000 or thereabouts Thus a person who earns $500,000 does not put any money into SS for $392,000 of their income. Raising the cutoff to 95% or even higher would go a long way to solving the SS problem. I’ll bet there are a lot of ex Wall St. types who wish more of their income had gone into SS, now that they are lucky if they can get a $60,000 a year job, or worse yet are unemployed.

“Can the debate be viewed on the internet anywhere? We don’t get MSNBC.”

How did you get so lucky?? /sar

Gun to your head, Maddow or Pelosi?

I was necessarily away so caught the stream online. Below is my log of the Q/A:

Brian Williams & John Harris.

1 min to answer 30 sec follow-up. No opening or closing statements.

Williams asking about Jobs & Economy:

Perry first question: (saw this coming, DNC) Texas fewest high school grads, high poverty level, many in minimum wage jobs. Is this what Americans are looking for?

Doesn't take bait. Focuses on job creation. 1m new jobs while America's lost 2m. Says 95% of new jobs have been above minimum wage. Zings White House as hypocrtical critics—I guess he saw this was a DNC talking point this week too.

Question for Romney: MA ranked 47th, private sector buyout specialist? Claims he turned out joblosses. Left with 4.7 unemployment. Says created more jobs than Obama and Obama doesn't understand economy. Asked about Bain Capitol cutting workers from companies it bought. Asked if being a career politician is a negative.

Perry gets a rebuttle. Texas created more jobs in 3 months than Romney did in 4 years. Romney demands rebuttle. Says Texas is different than MA. Claims he turned MA around. Perry says Dukakis created jobs faster than Mitt. Mitt claims W created more jobs than Perry.

Santorum question too. Cut corporate tax from 35% to 0 (Palin fans instisted she was the first to propose this). Repatriate capital. Says he can get things done.

Cain would elminate the tax code. Mentions 9-9-9 plan. 9% corporate tax, 9% sales tax, 9% personal income tax. Would replace all taxes: cap gains, payroll, etc. Says if 10% is good enough for God, 9% is good enough for government.

Huntsman asked about Romney's plan calling China a currency manipulator. Huntsman is overtanned in a bus yellow tie. Reagan flew a plane? Huntsman wants to speak in Chinese. Attacks Perry (4.9% job growth vs 5.9% in Utah) and Romney (47th place won't cut it).

Bachmann asked what regulations that have hurt her small business. Obamacare mentioned-not even 15 min in. It's killing jobs. 47% of black youth, 37% of hispanic kids are jobless. Kids & foster kids.

Ron Paul, known as absolutist, is safety a role of government? Says government doesn't need to do public safety, air traffic control. Says the market and states will take care of these things. Asked about drug safety. Pauls says lobbyists right the laws anyway.

Newt asked about about his foreward in Fed Up. Says he'd write another forward if Perry writes another book. Says it's silly to pick Fed Up apart as if a manifesto for a presidential canddiate. Talks about Reagan's job recovery at this point vs. Obama, talks about jobs while he was Speaker. Says Obams should be learning what Reagan did or talking to the three governors and Herman Cain about job creation but he can't because he's an ideologue.

Harris questioning on Healthcare:

(2008 Romney video clip failure.) Clip was Romney saying RomneyCare example offered a great opportunity. Harris asks panel if anyone says it offered a great example. Silence until Perry says RomneyCare was a great opportunity for the American people to see what won't work: an invididual mandate. Harris follows up with Romney: says he'd grant a waiver to all 50 states from ObamaCare. Says MA was different, covered 9% uninsured not 100% like ObamaCare.

Perry asked about his rejection of the RomneyCare example yet MA having almost universal coverage and Texas having about 25% without insurance. Harris claims TX is dead last. Medicaid dollars should be blockgranted to the states not managed by the feds. Would also use an executive order to toss ObamaCare. Say TX has asked for more flexibility on Medicaid and been denied.

Huntsman asked about individual mandate. Opposes. says Utah is perfect example on healthcare reform. Hits Romney on $2,500 increased costs to families in MA because of RomneyCare.

Bachmann asked about individual mandate too. Says first to offer bill for repeal of ObamaCare. Says will take strong leader to get it repealed.

Newt asked about individual mandate vs. Texas approach. Says Harris is just trying to get the candidates to fight. Says all on stage know ObamaCare is terrible. Badly written, rammed through because they lost Kennedy's Senate seat in MA, killing economy. Says Obama should call for repeal to get economy going again. Says everyone on stage should not allow media to run cover for Obama with it's efforts to cause infighting.

Cain asked about individual mandate. Says unconstitutional. Says he and Newt fought HillaryCare. He fought ObamaCare. Now he's running against RomneyCare. Calls for loser pays (Perry talking point), expanding medical savings accounts, association health plans. Says as leader of the restaurant association, they wanted a tailored plan for that industry and gov't restrictions wouldn't allow it.

Santorum asked in light of his Catholicm where the poor place in this party. (What??) Says he did more for poor than anyone. Says he wrote the welfare reform bill when in the House under Newt. Says housing and foodstamps need similar reforms. Bottom up, not top down solutions needed. Reform done to save lives, not just save money. Should not create dependency.

Perry asked about wealth disparity between whites and blacks. Quotes John F Kennedy that the most powerful welfare reform is a job and that's what we need to focus on.

Romney asked about Bachmann's under $2 gas. Says we should develop power here. Won't predict under $2 gas. Says energy development will create jobs.

Bachmann asked. Says energy huge opportunity for job creation. 1.2 million more jobs.

Huntsman asked if $2 gas is realistic. Says it's not.

Ron Paul asked about getting rid of minimum wage. Says it's a mandate and hurts the poor. Mentioned the Perry HillaryCare letter. On $2 gas, say a silver dime is worth over $3. Problem is inflation and fiat currency.

Perry explains the HillaryCare letter as asking her to consider agricultural and rural communities (was Agriculture Commissioner) as she developed plan. Mentions Ron Paul's letter to Reagan say he'd quit the party over what Reagan beleived in. Paul takes the bait: defends himself because the government was too big, ran huge deficits.

(BREAK)

Perry asked about Social Security. Repeats that it's a Pozni Scheme for younger people. People on the program or near the program have nothing to worry about. Asked about Rove calling it "toxic" language and Cheney's comments that it's an important program and not a Ponzi Scheme. Defends his views.

Mitt attacks Perry for saying Social Security is a failure and then explains that it is because of funding and government raiding its funds. Perry defends his blunt assessment.

Cain chimes in with his Chilean model: give younger workers a choice and transition out.

Ron Paul asked about Perry on bailout money, immigration and Gardasil. Thinks the HPV vaccine is bad medicine.

Bachmann asked about HPV. Talking about parental rights. Mentions education reform record. Says decisions best local.

Perry emphasized the opt-out. Says the legislature had passed a bill addressing health care, particularly cancers, and this was one on that list. Says he probably should've consulted legislature.

Questioner says Perry opposed DHS creation in Fed Up. Santorum asked about it because he voted for it. Defends it. Santorum attacks Perry on Gardasil and parental rights over state's rights.

Romney asked. Believes in parental rights. Says he Perry should get a mulligan. Heart was in right place.

Newt jobs in on DHS question. Says it was badly implemented and needs reforms but necessary.

Paul asked about eliminating TSA. Says government set the stage for 9/11 by disarming pilots.

Williams talking about disasters and federal aid. Paul asked about eliminating FEMA. Says what happened before 1979? Says people building where they shouldn't because FEMA undermined the market effect. Says bring troops home and use that money here.

Cain says fix FEMA, fix DHS. Says there's a responsible way for it to do things it should do. Opposes TSA. Micromanaging education and other things? No.

Huntsman asked about DHS. Says the fortress security mentality is unAmerican. Pivots to unemployment.

Perry asked about Texas education and cuts. Graduation rates up to 84%. Says progress being made. 8th grade blacks and hispanics testing among highest in country. Says when caterpillar, ebay, facebook and Toyota move to your state it's not because you have a workforce that isn't capable.

Newt asked about Obama's "Race to the Top" which he supported and Perry opted out of. Says it was because of charter schools. Wanted to encourage a move towards choice.

New questioner from Telemundo to ask on immigration, calling Reagan the last immigration president. (Did I hear groans?) Perry asked how he'd do it. Boots on the ground. Asked for 1,000 National Guard on the border since Jan 2009 and not gotten them. Says he'd add 4,000 border patrol for Texas-Mexican border and another 50% more for the rest. He'd use more drones and aviation assets. Says after it's secure than you can have an conversation about immigration reforms. Also said Obama either has the worst intel or is an abject liar about the border being safe.

Romney asked if he agrees with Perry. Romney says a fence (but not necessarily a physical barrier). Says we need to turn off "magnet" such as sanctuary cities, tuition breaks for illegal's children, employers knowingly hiring illegals. Says 4 million waiting legally. No Amnesty.

Newt asked. Says Reagan had it right: control border, guest worker program, employer sanctions. Says outsource to credit card companies because there would be mass counterfeiting if the feds did it. Says English as official language of gov't. Immigration (and American kids) should learn American history. Opposed to deporting millions.

Salmon tie Santorum asked. Says views similar to Newt. Son of immigrant. Says secure border first. Then we'll deal with those already here.

Bachmann asked to assume the physical fence is built. What do you do with those here? Talks around it. Says immigration was better in the 50s.

Cain asked. Says fence, boots, technology. Don't need new immigration scheme. Enforce existing laws, streamline existing immigration.

Huntsman asked. Says immigrants and human beings. Need to fix legal immigration system.

Ron Paul says easy road to citizenship. Says Texas shouldn't be required to give benefits to illegals. Says drug laws are causing a problem. Opposes fence says it'll be used to keep us in.

(BREAK)

Romney asked if he's a Tea Party member. Says there's no membership card. Supports many Tea Party principles.

Perry asked about the infamous hypothetical debt deal 10 dollars in cuts to 1 dollar in taxes. Perry joins the others in opposing it. Says spending cuts are what's needed. Cuts, capping spending and a balanced budget amendment. Says no matter what party is in power a balanced budget amendment is necessary. Americans would sleep better knowing they'd be less likely to wake up broke in the morning.

Asked if the others want to amend their views. Bachmann mentions the Reagan deal of $3 cuts to $1 in taxes not happening.

Huntsman asked about pledges. Opposes pledges. Says look at the record. Pledges short circuit debate.

Huntsman asked if the U.S. is safer now. Says we're week and bring the troops homes from Afghanistan but then says we need special forces and other things on the ground there.

Romney asked if there's a crisis of confidence in U.S. Romney agrees. Hopes there's no double-dip. People worked about economy. Says there's an absence of leadership. Says Obama is over his head.

Perry asked about a quote that American shouldn't engage in "military adventurism" and asked if Bush did that. Said it was a philosophical point. Military should be used where there's clear American interest, clear goal, clear exit strategy. Praised Obama for continuing the hunt for OBL, gave more credit to the SEAL team. Said Obama was right to go against his base and keep Gitmo open. Asked again, Perry suggests Obama has used the military where American interests aren't clearly defined. (Libya?)

Bachmann asked about Libya. Says Obama has weakened military. Mention the huge reduction that could happen under the super committee scheme. Says Obama has taken eyes off Iran. Mentions her position on the Select Committee of Intelligence. Pushed again on Libya, says it was wrong. Said Sec. Gates said there was no vital interest. Says we don't know who the rebels are. Mentions we don't know if they're radicals or if a global calafate may result.

Santorum calls Ron Paul and Huntsman as isolationists. Says America isn't the problem. Says Obama only moved on Libya because of the UN.

Huntsman asked about an advisory saying opponents says crazy, inane things. Huntsman says questions should call the guy and ask who he meant. Followup, Huntsman said some are anti-science so who is anti-science? Says you can't question 98/100 climate scientists or the science of evolution. Says you can't run from science if you want to win.

Perry asked about climate change. Says risking the economy on what some scientists say is too great a risk. Mentions Galileo having been an outsider as an example of scientific consensus being wrong. Says you can pursue clean air, mentions ozone and nitrous oxide reductions in Texas, without risking the economy on theory.

Bachmann asked about drilling in the Everglades in FL. She says we should use our resources responsibly. Says on climate change, it's a political agenda not science. She says even Obama's seen how bad the EPA regulations are with his suspension of new rules that would shut down many coal plants. She says Obama wanted American to be like Spain in green energy and says Spain's has among the highest unemployment and *that* is what Obama's brought here. Says Obama will have temporary gimmicks, not permanent solutions in his job's speech.

Newt asked if he'd reappoint Bernanke. Says he'd fire him tomorrow. Says he's pursued power, secrecy, overinflation. Would audit Fed. Says there's no transparency. Goes back to the 10-to-1 question. Says the question should be about raising taxes but about increasing revenue. Mentions energy production.

Romney asked about 47% not paying federal income taxes. Says he doesn't want to raise taxes but everyone should have a part. Says middle class most hurt by Obama economy. Mentions tax free savings for under $200K. Would Bernanke have a job? No. QE2 failed, overinflation.

Perry asked about executions. Can he sleep at night? Perry says he's not had a problem. Says Texas has a fair process of justice with appeals to the U.S. Supreme Court if warranted. Williams asks what Perry makes of the applause for the Texas execution numbers. Says Americans understand justice and capital punishment.

Cain asked about companies avoiding taxes. Mentions his 9-9-9 plan. Levels the playing field. Government shouldn't pick winners and losers. Says if this recovery tied for second to last there's be over 6 million new jobs. If it tied the Reagan recovery there'd be 12 million new jobs. Says Obama doesn't understand business and economic growth.

Ron Paul asked about starving children, LBJ. Says that's something for local and state government. Funding a welfare state at the federal level is unconstitutional. Those who believe in liberty don't lack compassion. Instead they understand the market and how people are fed and cared for. It's not the government.

END OF DEBATE

Caught the replay. My 2 cents:

* Panel as a whole sounded good

* Winner: Romney. Sorry, I know he's despised here, but he's manifestly the best at this. Unflappable.

* Loser: Ron Paul. Goes off the rails completely with the border fence and trashes Reagan's legacy. Why Ron?

* Thumbs up: Perry - proves he's a better communicator than Bush (thank God), takes plenty of jabs, but does reasonably well despite (slightly disconcerting) slow/halting pace of speaking and clunky overreliance on notes. Gives refreshingly honest assessment of Social Security, despite the obvious political risk (which I trust (hope) is principled candor and not political naiveté).

*Thumbs down: John Hunstman - liberal car salesman routine with smarmy view of conservatives/man of the world routine becomes even more grating. Bachmann - Couldn't breakout and was marginalized; $2 gas claim still absurd. Gingrich - Tough guy routine losing its spontaneity; ignored for most of the debate. Cain - Likeable and good slogans, but appears to be lacking in substance. Santorum - irrelevant.

Just my opinion.

Are you sure you are on the right board? Why should the high achievers pay SS tax on entire income when their benefits are limited based on $108k level? That is a form of wealth distribution. Your post would do well on Democratic Underground.

LOL

Cain is proposing to add a national sales tax on top of income taxes.

He thinks he can get them to eliminate many other taxes and make the 3 left 9%, on the way to the "Fair tax" which would eliminate the income tax entirely.

Unfortunately for Mr. Cain, the way this gov't works we'd get a national sales tax and the income tax and all the other taxes.

It'll be like California but at a national level.

Right you are. All these man made global warming believers can’t answer one simple question...how did the last ice age end? Where did the fierce global warming come from to melt several miles thick glaciers with enough mass to form the largest body of fresh water on earth...the Great Lakes.