Posted on 07/20/2011 8:23:11 PM PDT by decimon
Recent protests in Israel highlight the differences between the country's religious and secular Jewish communities.
Hundreds of right-wing Jews have taken part in demonstrations outside Israel's Supreme Court over the brief detention of two prominent rabbis in the last few weeks.
There were clashes with police on horseback on the nearby Jerusalem streets and several arrests were made.
Rabbis Dov Lior and Yacob Yousef had endorsed a highly controversial book, the King's Torah - written by two lesser-known settler rabbis. It justifies killing non-Jews, including those not involved in violence, under certain circumstances.
The fifth chapter, entitled "Murder of non-Jews in a time of war" has been widely quoted in the Israeli media. The summary states that "you can kill those who are not supporting or encouraging murder in order to save the lives of Jews".
At one point it suggests that babies can justifiably be killed if it is clear they will grow up to pose a threat.
(Excerpt) Read more at bbc.co.uk ...
I understand your intention, I don’t think you understand your words.
My 90 yr old grandmother was raped and killed when I was a kid. Does my hatred of that person make me the same as this disturbed person? I don’t think so.
Modern Protestants think its a sin to defend themselves. I don’t.
Idiots are those who fall for agitprop. The book was not released, before a leftist anti-religious group, took passages from a discussion and tried to get the book banned. This is no different than antisemites who got the Talmud burned by selectively misquoting or mischaracterizing passages. The only thing worse than the ignorance that leads leads Jews to fall for this is the vindictive evil of the leftist Jews in lying and the lefting antisemites at the BBC in doubling down on mischaracterizations.
Leave it to the BBC and others to skew things royally. Before this gets further out of hand, here is an explanation of what this is, and what it actually means.
First, you need to understand something about how Rabbis and Torah scholars view things. We debate and look at every side of a question, theory, or an issue, even if it is unpopular, or seemingly off the wall. We do this in reference to the Torah, the Talmud, Halacha, and other many other sefers and text written by our sages, throughout the many generations.
Torat HaMelech is NOT, I repeat NOT, about how, when or why Jews may kill gentiles. The book is about under what circumstances, and when, a soldier is permitted to kill. It is a sefer- a book- regarding military ethics. The question is if war is allowed, then what could justify the taking of life. There must always be a distinction between circumstances when killing is permitted- necessary and not permitted.
And, if you know anything at all about Judaism, we do NOT like taking life, and go out of our way to prevent it- often, to great danger to ourselves.
An example of this is when Israelis drop warning leaflets from their fighter jets, giving civilians warning to get out of an area because of a coming Israeli attack. What other people/nation does that???
In this particular book, the authors look at the question from a number of different theories. Some of these views are very calloused, some are based upon the Noahide laws, some on the Kabbalah, others are by “target priorities” and others by “universal military ethics, in which civilians/ civilian areas are unfortunately part of the target. An example of this would be the Allied bombing of Dresden, Germany.
But it is important to be very clear on one thing. Jews are not permitted to kill gentiles, any more than they are permitted to kill other Jews. But, in war, if someone comes to kill you, you are required to defend yourself, family, people, and nation.
What is very apparent is that the world does not seem to think Jews have a right to defense, let alone survive. And when Rabbis write a sefer on such theory for Rabbinic review, which is exactly what Torat HaMelech was, the Anti-Semites start to salivate over something new and exciting to skew and use. So, if anyone is under this impression, let me ease your minds and nip this craziness in the bud.....No the Jews are not coming to kill you......
‘The King’s Torah’ – a clash of values
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=228069
For what this is worth:
There is no such thing as the “Old Testament”. What you are referring to is the Torah. Please be kind, and respectful, and refer to it by it’s name: The Torah. It was a gift from G-D, and G-D Himself, called it HIS Torah. Humans do not have a right to make it obsolete, or antiquated, or rename it. That being said.....
Jesus was a Jew. He was a Rabbi. He ate Kosher, his parents ate Kosher. He had a Brit Millah. Jesus studied Torah and what he taught was theTorah. And, if anyone would care to study it, you will find that Jesus also taught the teachings of Rabbi Hillel, the elder, who lived before him. Jesus died a Jew. Jesus taught Torah. Don’t knock it, or rename it- it is part of your “roots”.
With all due respect, the Old Testament is the Old Testament. No human made it obsolete, God made it fulfilled in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. The Torah is a gift from God but Jesus is God. I respect that you do not believe this but you must respect that I and over a billion Christians do.
You confuse power with cruelty because of your lack of spiritual morality.
War is about imposing your will, NO MATTER WHAT.
War is about defeating evil. ANY other reason IS evil.
War is determined by who has the will to do the worst to the enemy.
War is not "determined." People fighting for evil are murderers - not warriors. And as for "the will to do the worst to the enemy" - Hitler very much agreed with your Nietzschean so-called "ethics." And so did Stalin and Mao.
You are a fool.
Do Christians believe that G-D specifically instructed you to change its name? If He did, then why? If He did not, then why do you?
‘There is no such thing as the “Old Testament”. What you are referring to is the Torah’
Isn’t it true that the Torah is the name for the first five books of what Christians call the Old Testament, and is the only sacred scripture of the Samaritans? The Hebrew Bible, not the Torah, would be the equivalent to the Christian Old Testament.
Torah, the Law, refers only to the first five books of Moses. The Old Testament refers to the entire collection of Scripture relating to the covenants before Jesus Christ. I thought that you knew that.
That is not actually correct. The Torah has 72 layers, and all scripture eminates, and is also contained within it. Jews do not use the term “Old Testament” We use the name HaShem gave it, “Torah.”
Under this expanded definition of the Torah, if all scripture is contained within it then the New Testament, being the true word of God, is part of the Torah. The Old Testament is then still a valid term for that part of the Torah that refers to the covenants before Jesus Christ.
Jews do not use the term “Old Testament” We use the name HaShem gave it, “Torah.”
Fine, as a Jew refer to it as the Torah. As a Christian I will continue to refer to this part of Sacred Scripture as the Old Testament.
Again, that would be incorrect. It is not an”expanded” definition. The Torah has 72 layers, we know what they are, and has not changed since HaShem gave it to Moshe Rabbeinu.
When HaShem gave the Torah to Moshe Rabbeinu ( Moses), he was instructed to give it to each of the tribes. They were to follow, and live by the Torah until the End of Time, as it was HaShem’s complete book of life and law to the Jewish people. The Jews were charged to be a “Light Unto the Nations” and teach the Torah to others. But HaShem said it was His Torah, it was a Complete Book of Life and Law that we were to live by and follow until the End of Time.
Jews do not accept Jesus as a Moshiach, nor as G-D. There are many reasons for this, but mainly because the prophecies of the Holy Niviim were not completed, had not taken place as yet, and that the Moshiach- or Messiah, was to come at that time when the entire world was either at peace, or total destruction. We do not accept the Moshiach as a deity, or G-D.
However, Jews do believe that we are now at that point in time, because the prophecies are now taking place, accurately, exactly as written, and like clockwork. Many of us do believe that Moshiach ben Dovid is now among us, and presently in Jerusalem.
Jews believe that he will be King of Israel, a Rabbi from Beit Dovid ( House of David) who will defeat those who come against Israel during the war of GoguMogog. The Hebrew scriptures do not define him as G-D, or as anything other than a king who is a Tzadik, very holy Rabbi who will come to bring each and every Jew back to Israel, and rule Israel by Torah to lead them the world into the Geula.
My point though, apart from the Jewish history, is believe what ever you want, HaShem created worlds and many peoples..... but, if G-D gives something a name, in this case, the Torah, unless it is G-D that comes forward and reveals Himself to people like he did to 3 million Jews at Mt. Sinai, and specifically tells people to change it,- it is a Blasphemy to change it. Thus, you commit a very, very grave sin, a “Chillul HaShem”.
You should ask former Illinois State Senator Obama about that...
It's not propaganda if it's news and it's news if it's happening. If you know this controversy to not exist then say so.
Actually production kept rising in Germany.
I happen to agree with you on that.
Which is why, if the passages in "the King's Torah" are described correctly, I would say that the authors of that book have slandered the Jews.
Is there an objective source in English that we can refer to which quotes the book accurately??
I’m pretty sure the text wasn’t published even in Hebrew. The short version is that there is rabbinic opinion that no moral problem exists killing an enemy in a war or conflict, even if that means that someone innocent might also be killed.
Plenty of excuse for a typical round of Jew-bashing on FR, though.
The thesis has historical precedent. Modernininity is all about peace and love. The thought is about replacing those methods and actions that promote survival and reverts to the norm.
When push comes to shove, death is a highly underrated motivator.
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