Posted on 07/17/2011 1:06:48 PM PDT by Brices Crossroads
The news and blogosphere is filled with responses to the July 14, 2011 story by Joshua Green, the Senior Editor of the Atlantic, entitled "Michele Bachmann's Church Says the Pope Is the Antichrist." That is because it raises a serious matter which should not be taken lightly, and one which the candidate must address. First, let me share some personal context. I am what is often called a "revert" to the Catholic Church, someone who returned to the Church of my childhood after a long search for the truth. I love being a Catholic Christian. I hold an undergraduate degree and a master's degree in Catholic theology. I am a dissertation away from obtaining a PhD in Catholic Moral Theology. I am also a member of the Clergy, a Deacon. However, I write this article as a private and very concerned citizen.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.org ...
Hi, RitaOK. I’m so glad we can have a civil discussion on this. So many times on this board posts between Catholics and Protestants get a bit heated and anything BUT civil. I think the difference lies in the sanctification process versus the justification process. Protestants hold to the Scriptural view that the latter occurs once — but we are continually “sanctified” — and that is where the fruits of the Spirit are made manifest. Those who belong to Christ though need not fear that they will not “make it” or “will die” before they can get right because they are already “right” with God. When sins are forgiven and repentance occurs it happens once for all time. Christ forgives, has forgiven and will forgive all past, future and present sins. Contrary to what some say who don’t understand this Biblical truth, this is not a “license to sin”. (Paul addresses this very issue in the NT). Those who see it as such and live accordingly (sinning as much as they wish without any conviction) are not saved. Repentance is a fundamental of salvation. Where there is no “turning” there can be no salvation. It doesn’t mean we won’t sin, but the Holy Spirit living within us will relentlessly convict us of the need to repent. It’s not repentance unto salvation at that point, for that has already occurred or we would not have the Holy Spirit. It is part of the ongoing sanctification process.
Now that’s probably a much longer and wordier response than you were looking for. Apologies.
That too...
How about following common FR courtesy and ping the FReeper you are talking about?
HiTech RedNeck on post 33: I was not FReepborn yesterday and it is very rare to come across an evangelical who categorically states “a Catholic cannot be a Christian.” Onus on you to catalog a rebuttal.
To which Palladin replied in post 41: Just do an FR search on the name “Gamecock”.
To refute Palladin's slander, I invite all to my home page, on which the following statement has been posted since 2001: I think there will be some Reformed "Christians" in hell, some Arminians and Catholics in Heaven.
Now Palladin, please show us all where I have ever said there are no Catholic Christians. < crickets>
“It is part of the sanctification process, not the justified — which only occurs once (according to Scripture) when one comes to faith in Christ.”
Sorry - that last bit should read “justification” — not “justified”.
” Some of the Catholics on FR have stated they don’t believe she is anti-Catholic, and that they fully intend to vote for her.” <<<
You are absolutely right, and Catholics are free to vote for her if she is the nominee against Obama. The arguments here are theological, and cathartic, a steam release exercise which may not be entirely unhealthy after all. I like Bachman, and I trust her that she is not going to make abusing Catholics much of a priority. :)
That helps not hurt Obama’s chances in 2012 IMHO...
Catholicism is but one of many man-made religions. Christianity is what we should aim for, not any religion or denomination.
The infighting between Christians is stupid.
I won’t vote for someone who says my Faith is Satanic. It aint complicated.
To fill you in, here is a sample of some of the responses thus far (and i do not favor Bachmann for President, if the Repubs allow a good man to run):
Lets let the muslim kenyan stay in office”
we adore Michele Bachmann and have no problem supporting her at all.
Bachmann is too right-wing evangelical for my taste...” Reminds me of someone else and his pastor, out in Chicago, just before he ran for President. “
my Catholic in-laws always vote for the LIBERAL democrat
54% of Catholics put aside their religious persuasion and voted for Obama.
Bachmann better come out and explain why she belonged to this “Church” that holds us all in contempt until SIX DAYS BEFORE ANNOUNCING FOR PRESIDENT. Or else she will be toast. If she isn’t toast already.
I’m Catholic and if she ends up as our candidate, I’m voting for her.
This might matter to me,,, if i wasn’t treated to a continous stream of Roman catholic threads that are very disrespectful of protestants. Arrogant statements that only the catholics are the true church,
I have experienced the most vicious anti-Catholicism I have ever seen on the FR Religion Forum
I’m a Deacon in my church, I’ve studied scripture and can find many Catholic doctrines that I disagree with but frankly, I find the doctrine of the Pope as the Anti-Christ to be extreme and unsupported by scripture.
The Gov. of NY is a Catholic, Pelosi, Kennedy’s - Catholic, Notre Dame so called Catholic University had a Priest arrested recently and Buffalos Canisus campus had Hillery Clinton speak at an event.
These are not wobbly Catholics, these examples are instead, dedicated protestants to the Church, who make political hay for themselves by continuing to identify themselves as Catholics, causing grave scandal by their self identity to the Church they despise.
you forget. In the United States Catholics are an “oppressed minority.” That means they can only be victims of “prejudice” and never practitioners of it.
Michele Bachmann Should Not ‘Get a Pass’ on Past Membership in Anti-Catholic Church. Why not? All the anti-Catholic Catholics in the Obama administration do.
By my count, this is at least the 3rd thread you’ve posted on the same subject. You’re likely suffering from OCD or APD (or something worse).
It is funny that Catholics should be worried about some minor Protestant doctrines unfriendly to them, when Catholics do the same sort of thing. In my own ancestry, I have direct ancestors who (for a fact!) were dragged from their homes into the street by a Roman Catholic mob, and had their throats slit
And MY ancestors were tortured and killed my Protestants...Funny thing about that.
Actually, according to the “The Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope” by is part of the
Augsburg Confession, the Pope is a considerd a anti-christ (not The) as he claims to be the vicar of christ on earth and to act as Christ on earth..Basically what Luther had to endure and corruption of the Catholic chruch I could understand why he felt that way.
As president of the United States how do you engage a religious leader, an ally, who is also a legitimate head of state, when your faith says he’s the Antichrist?
Notice it is an attack on the legitamacy of the Office of Pope....not on the Christianity of Roman Catholics. I know this is upseting to many Roman Catholics. However, I get “disturbed” when a Roman Catholic tries to tell me that theirs is the ONLY true church and the rest of us are apostates to some degree from RC.
all Protestant Churches are “anti-Catholic in a BIG way. Just like the Catholic Church is anti-Protestant in a big way, and I say that as a Protestant who loves my Catholic brothers and sisters.
in reality any conservative protestant is never going to agree that the Papacy is a valid office. So, all conservative protestants must equally be unsavory.
Catholicism is but one of many man-made religions. Christianity is what we should aim for, not any religion or denomination.” <<<
Trying to evangelize is never stupid for Christians. Theological teachings and discussion thereof is not stupid.
A lot of the people “aimed” for the Ark too, but there was only one. Those who aimed but missed drowned.
Now it is true that people become exasperated, and some cranky, but really...stupid? I don’t think so. Maybe you should find another thread you don’t think is so stupid. :)
So Catholics should look the other way when it’s discovered that Ms Bachmann attended a virulently anti Catholic church.We are quite aware that anti Catholicism is the predjudice accepted and practiced by Left and Right.If Congresswoman Bachmann has any hope of becoming POTUS she will explain this disquieting fact.Like Freepers who will stay home or write in if Romney is nominated, Catholics can and will do the same thing.
Is is not blasphemous to attack thee original church of Jesus Christ? Is it now blasphemous to lie about the church of St. Peter?
With respect to Michelle Bachmann, I am not saying I want asshobama to win. I’m saying that just like RevWright and Obama, I would expect some sort of explanation.
And yes, lying about a church is blashemy:
Here is the law in Ireland:
Here is an excerpt from the Blasphemy Clause:
Section 36
(1) A person who publishes or utters blasphemous matter shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable upon conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €100,000. [Amended to €25,000]
(2) For the purposes of this section, a person publishes or utters blasphemous matter if (a) he or she publishes or utters matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion, and (b) he or she intends, by the publication or utterance of the matter concerned, to cause such outrage.
Continue reading on Examiner.com Ireland passes blasphemy law - Philadelphia atheism | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-philadelphia/ireland-passes-blasphemy-law#ixzz1SPw4Ynmt
Does the Atlantic really care who is the Anti-Christ?
While I think the Lutheran Synod of Bachmann is wrong, that is historic protestant teaching, and I’m pretty sure Martin Luther believed essentially the same.
John Wesley did, so that axes Methodists. Luther did so that axes Lutherans. Calvin did so that axes presbies, congregationalists, etc., etc.
It’s beginning to sound like a “religious test”....isn’t it? And those are forbidden by the constitution.
Oh...and should we get rid of Obama because of Jeremiah Wright?
Your position that your religion trumps Christianity is duly noted.
PEOPLE LISTEN.
This is not about Bachmann vs. soetero. This is about Bachmann and her past - it SHOULD BE KNOWN prior to the primaries so WE can make an informed decision. If her church indeed stated that the Pope is the antichrist, then that would important for me to know.
If this is not an issue then why, all of a sudden, did she leave her church? She knows damn well that this is going to bite her in the arse.
I spent some time attending both Baptist and Church of Christ Churches before I went HOME to the Catholic Church. I can tell you that both the Baptist and Church of Christ churches overtly criticized the Catholic church on a recurring basis -—— so much so that it made me defensive of the Catholic church and I went back. I have NEVER heard our priest utter one negative word about protestant religions. But I heard plenty of evangelicals get their pants in a wad about the Catholics.
Interesting note is that the Catholic church is now experiencing respectable growth as many lost protestants are coming home to where they need to be.
All this crap in this thread from the evangelicals could end up pushing me to Romney if Palin won’t run. And yes, if Palin through this out there, then good for her, because we all know how the jackals in Bachmann’s campaign were criticizing Palin.
Neither Michele Bachmann, nor the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, claims that our Faith is “Satanic.” See my post #288.
Our enemy is not the candidate who agrees with us 90% of the time; it’s the president who disagrees with us 90% of the time.
“During eucharist, they explained that non-catholics were not welcome...To me, it is all a technicality, a mechanism of trying to assert control. It is damaging to the very worthy interests of the Roman Catholic Church, most of which I support. It short, it is foolish and non-Christian.
Do WELS Lutherans do the same thing? I just read on another one of these threads they aren’t even supposed to pray with other Christians. I don’t know if they enforce that or not.
Here’s what the UCCB says about Communion and other Christians:
We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ’s prayer for us “that they may all be one” (Jn 17:21).
Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 § 4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 § 3).
Freegards
” Your position that your religion trumps Christianity is duly noted.” <<<<
huh? I’m trying to get the water from my ear on that one!
Christianity IS a religion. In fact, buzz off. This thread is for the more informed.
So the ugly truth comes out.
And why should they? There is no religious test for office, per the constitution. Do you want to institute one?
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