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To: Mr. K

PEOPLE LISTEN.

This is not about Bachmann vs. soetero. This is about Bachmann and her past - it SHOULD BE KNOWN prior to the primaries so WE can make an informed decision. If her church indeed stated that the Pope is the antichrist, then that would important for me to know.

If this is not an issue then why, all of a sudden, did she leave her church? She knows damn well that this is going to bite her in the arse.

I spent some time attending both Baptist and Church of Christ Churches before I went HOME to the Catholic Church. I can tell you that both the Baptist and Church of Christ churches overtly criticized the Catholic church on a recurring basis -—— so much so that it made me defensive of the Catholic church and I went back. I have NEVER heard our priest utter one negative word about protestant religions. But I heard plenty of evangelicals get their pants in a wad about the Catholics.

Interesting note is that the Catholic church is now experiencing respectable growth as many lost protestants are coming home to where they need to be.

All this crap in this thread from the evangelicals could end up pushing me to Romney if Palin won’t run. And yes, if Palin through this out there, then good for her, because we all know how the jackals in Bachmann’s campaign were criticizing Palin.


335 posted on 07/17/2011 7:16:13 PM PDT by AdamBomb
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To: AdamBomb

“This is not about Bachmann vs. soetero. This is about Bachmann and her past - it SHOULD BE KNOWN prior to the primaries so WE can make an informed decision. If her church indeed stated that the Pope is the antichrist, then that would important for me to know.

If this is not an issue then why, all of a sudden, did she leave her church? She knows damn well that this is going to bite her in the arse.”

Right, Adam. The point of this thread is not to see how many freepers are going to vote for Obama over Bachmann. I presume that would be next to none. Ideological conservative Catholics will almost all vote for any GOPer over Obama. But you have a large number of non ideological Catholics who are unhappy with Obama. Many are ethnic and many are concentrated in the Midwest states where the election will be decided.

These Catholics are not going to be interested in whether Catholics believe other denominations are condemned or any other theological questions. These Catholics many of whom are Polish or Eastern European are going to hear that Bachmann belonged to a church that believed that their beloved John Paul II was the Anti-Christ, and that will be it. They won’t vote for her. And that is absolutely fatal in states like PA, Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin. No amount of argument will persuade them.

Bachmann knows this. It is why she got out of that Church. She is going to have to explain it. Otherwise she is going to bleed support as people begin to realize that a vote for her is wasted completely.


349 posted on 07/17/2011 8:52:28 PM PDT by Brices Crossroads
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To: AdamBomb

    Interesting note is that the Catholic church is now experiencing respectable growth as many lost protestants are coming home to where they need to be.

    Overall, the tide has and is going the opposite direction, with RC growth in the US being a result of immigration policies.

  • A Catholic study in the year 2000 reported that of the 17 religious bodies in America with 1 million or more adherents in 2000, only six showed an increase in numbers while 10 showed a decline in numbers. Glenmary Research Centers. 3.5http://www.glenmary.org/grc/RCMS_2000/Catholic_findings.htm

  • Among the gainers, four religious bodies showed double-digit increases-- between 16 percent for Catholics and 19 percent for Latter-Day Saints (Mormons). The Southern Baptist Convention grew at nearly 5 percent. ^

  • Except for Catholics (which grew by immigration), all those bodies gaining members between 1990 and 2000 generally are considered “Conservative Protestants,” while most of those showing a decrease in number of adherents generally are considered “Moderate” or “LiberalProtestants. ^

  • In every state, the percent Catholic growth from 1990 to 2000 was very substantially greater than the general population growth [including a 45 percent increase in Arkansas and 111 percent increase in Nevada.] ^

  • The Catholic population of the United States had fallen by nearly 400,000 in 2007, and suffered a slight membership loss in 2009 but increased 1.49 percent in 2010. [U.S. population growth rate in 2008 was 0.9 percent]. From 2007 to 2008 Roman Catholics grew from 17.33 percent of the global population to 17.4 percent in 2008. http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=5753 http://www.ncccusa.org/news/100204yearbook2010.html

  • According to the American Bishops' count (as reported in WP) in their Official Catholic Directory 2010, which primarily rests on the parish assessment tax which pastors evaluate yearly according to the number of registered members and contributors, Catholics in the United States represented 22% of the US population.

  • 2010 reports show the Church of God (Cleveland, Tenn.) - ranked 24th largest - increased 1.76 percent, and the Assemblies of God (9th) grew 1.27 percent. The Latter-day Saints [cult] (ranked 4th largest) grew 1.71 percent, the Jehovah's Witnesses [cult] (23rd ) said they were up 2 percent http://www.ncccusa.org/news/100204yearbook2010.html

  • The Presbyterian Church (USA) shrank 3.3 percent Southern Baptist Convention, the largest denomination after Catholics, lost 0.24 percent of its membership and now stands at 16.2 million. It also declined in membership in the year prior. http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholic_church_shows_robust_growth_in_u.s._membership_new_report_says/

  • In numbers (not percentage), Catholicism, which lists 68.1 million in the US, has experienced “the greatest net loss” of any major religious group. members. The 'had it' Catholics,” National Catholic Reporter ,Oct. 11, 2001, based on reports from the 2008 Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life survey and the National Council of Churches’ 2010 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches.

  • 44 percent of Americans have switched religious affiliations since childhood, mostly mainline Protestants. 7% who were raised Protestant are now unaffiliated; 15% now belong to a different Protestant faith. ^

  • 80% of adults who were raised Protestant are still Protestant. ^

  • 51% of Protestants from a different Protestant denomination cite a lack of spiritual fulfillment as a reason for leaving their childhood faith. 85% say they joined their current denominational faith because they enjoy the services and style of worship Only 15% left say they left because they stopped believing in its teachings. ^

  • Those who have left Catholicism outnumber those who have joined the Catholic Church by nearly a four-to-one margin. 10.1% have left the Catholic Church after having been raised Catholic, while only 2.6% of adults have become Catholic after having been raised in a different faith.

  • 4% of Americans raised Catholic are now unaffiliated; 5% are now Protestant. ^

  • Over 75% of those who left Catholicism attended Mass at least once a week as children, versus 86% having done so who remain Catholics today.^

  • Regarding reasons for leaving Catholicism, less than 30% of former Catholics agreed that the clergy sexual abuse scandal played a role in their departure. ^

  • 71% of Protestants converts from Catholicism said that their spiritual needs were not being met in Catholicism, with 78% of Evangelical Protestants concurring, versus 43% of those now unaffiliated. ^

  • 50% of all Protestants converts from Catholicism said they stooped believing in Catholicism's teachings overall. Only 23% (20% now evangelical) were unhappy about Catholicism's teachings on abortion/homosexuality (versus 46% of those now unaffiliated); 23% also expressed disagreement with teaching on divorce/remarriage; 16% (12% now evangelical) were dissatisfied with teachings on birth control, 70% said they found a religion the liked more in Protestantism.

  • 55% of evangelical converts from Catholicism cited dissatisfaction with Catholic teachings about the Bible was a reason for leaving Catholicism, with 46% saying the Catholic Church did not view the Bible literally enough.

  • 81% of all Protestant converts from Catholicism said they enjoyed the service and worship of Protestant faith as a reason for joining a Protestant denomination, with 62% of all Protestants and 74% Evangelicals also saying that they felt God's call to do so. ^

  • 42% of those now unaffiliated stated they do not believe in God, or most religious teaching. ^

  • 54% of “millennial generation” Catholics (born in 1982 or later) are Hispanics, while 39% are non-Hispanic whites. On the other hand, 76% of “pre-Vatican II generation” Catholics (born 1943 or earlier) are non-Hispanic whites, while 15% are Hispanics. Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University, September, 2010 . http://www.osv.com/tabid/7621/itemid/6850/Openers-More-evidence-of-the-browning-of-US-Cat.aspx

  • Latinos comprised 32 percent of all U.S. Catholics in 2008, versus to 20 percent in 1990. However, Catholic identification has slipped from 66 percent in 1990 to 60 percent in 2008. There has also been a significant rise in the number of Latinos who do not adhere to a religion. The longer a Latino has lived in the United States, the less likely he or she is to be Catholic. Study of Secularism in Society and Culture at Trinity College, http://theamericano.com/2010/03/18/new-report-on-u-s-latino-religious-identification/

  • 1,000 Mexicans left the Catholic Church every day between 2000 and 2010, a decline that has continued uninterrupted over the past 60 years, from 98.21 of the population to 83.9 percent today. Latin American Herald Tribune, March 10, 2011, based upon census data and study by sociologist and historian Roberto Blancarte of Colegio de Mexico and the National Autonomous University of Mexico

  • The percentage of of Protestants and Evangelicals rose from 1.28% in 1950 to close to 8% of the total population in 2010, (excluding so-called Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons). 5.2 million say they profess no religion. ^

  • This decline is seen as extending across the region (Catholics represent between 55% to 73% in Central America, 70% in Brazil, 50% in Cuba and Uruguay).^

  • 51% of Hispanic Evangelicals are converts, and 43% are former Catholics. 82% of Hispanics cite the desire for a more direct, personal experience with God as the main reason for adopting a new faith. Among those who have become evangelicals, 90% say it was a spiritual search for a more direct, personal experience with God was the main reason that drove their conversion. Negative views of Catholicism do not appear to be a major reason for their conversion. ^

  • A study which broke down Mainline Protestants, Evangelical Protestants, and non-Hispanic Catholics into the three subgroups of traditionalists, centrists, and modernists, found that 5.3 percent of the respondents qualified as traditionalist Catholic, 5.4 percent as centrist Catholics, and 4.9 percent of respondents are modernist Catholics. The Henry Institute, A Pre-Election Analysis http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/survey_finds_some_catholics_looking_for_a_political_home/

  • Latinos Catholics constituted 6.8 percent of the survey respondents. ^

  • About 68 percent of traditionalist Catholics opposed gays and lesbian marriage, versus 50% of centrist Catholics and 65 percent of modernist Catholics. ^

  • Traditionalist Catholics disagreed that “abortion should be legal and solely up to the woman to decide” 71 to 21 percent, centrist Catholics agreed 54 to 40 percent, and modernist Catholics agreed 80-16 percent. ^

  • Catholic Latinos, overwhelmingly identify as Democratic, 57 percent to 15 percent. Religion and the 2008 Election: ^

  • Evangelical Protestants are the most politically conservative Christian tradition. Within each tradition, those with literal views of the Bible are more politically conservative than is their tradition overall. Catholics that are Biblical literalists (11.8%) hold more conservative political views than the Catholic population in general does. The Biblical literalist Catholic is as politically conservative as the Biblical literalist who is Evangelical (47.8%) or Mainline Protestant. (11.2%) American Piety in the 21st Century, Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/33304.pdf

  • More stats: http://www.peacebyjesus.com/RC-Stats_vs._Evang.html

  • Meanwhile it can be asked if Bachmann's church ever taught this:

  • Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors): "[It is error to believe that] Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true." Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors), Issued in 1864, Section III, Indifferentism, Latitudinarianism, #15. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

  • Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors):

  • [It is error to believe that] Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship." Section X, Errors Having Reference to Modern Liberalism, #78. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

  • Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors): "[It is error to believe that] In the case of conflicting laws enacted by the two powers (Church and civil), the civil law prevails." Section VI, Errors About Civil Society, Considered Both in Itself and in its Relation to the Church, # 42. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

  • Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors): "[It is error to believe that] The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church." Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus Issued in 1864, Section VI, Errors About Civil Society, Considered Both in Itself and in its Relation to the Church, #55. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

  • Pope Pius X VEHEMENTER NOS: That the State must be separated from the Church is a thesis absolutely false, a most pernicious error....

  • Hence the Roman Pontiffs have never ceased, as circumstances required, to refute and condemn the doctrine of the separation of Church and State...

  • When the law, by the suppression of the Budget of Public Worship, exonerates the State from the obligation of providing for the expenses of worship, it violates an engagement contracted in a diplomatic convention, and at the same time commits a great injustice. Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906. http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10law.htm

  • Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, 1302: Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered _for_ the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest. Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, 1302 http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html

  • Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors): "[It is error to believe that] The (Catholic) Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect." Section V, Errors Concerning the Church and Her Rights, #24. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

  • ...having once found the true Church, private judgment of this kind ceases; having discovered the authority established by God, you must submit to it at once. There is no need of further search for the doctrines contained in the Christian Gospel, for the Church brings them all with her and will teach you them all. You have sought for the Teacher sent by God, and you have secured him; what need of further speculation?

  • ...outside the pale of Rome there is not a scrap of additional truth of Revelation to be found.”

  • He willingly submits his judgment on questions the most momentous that can occupy the mind of man-----questions of religion-----to an authority located in Rome.”

  • Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God's Church on matters of faith and morals-----this is what all must give..”

  • The Vicar of Christ is the Vicar of God; to us the voice of the Pope is the voice of God. This, too, is why Catholics would never dream of calling in question the utterance of a priest in expounding Christian doctrine according to the teaching of the Church;”

  • He is as sure of a truth when declared by the Catholic Church as he would be if he saw Jesus Christ standing before him and heard Him declaring it with His Own Divine lips.” — Henry G. Graham, "What Faith Really Means", (Nihil Obstat:C. SCHUT, S. T.D., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: EDM. CANONICUS SURMONT, D.D.,Vicarius Generalis. WESTMONASTERII, Die 30 Septembris, 1914 )

  • "The intolerance of the Church toward error, the natural position of one who is the custodian of truth, her only reasonable attitude makes her forbid her children to read or to listen to heretical controversy, or to endeavor to discover religious truths by examining both sides of the question."

  • The reason of this stand of his is that, for him, there can be no two sides to a question which for him is settled; for him, there is no seeking after the truth: he possesses it in its fulness, as far as God and religion are concerned. His Church gives him all there is to be had; all else is counterfeit..he must refuse to be liberal in the sense of reading all sorts of Protestant controversial literature.”

  • Holding to Catholic principles how can he do otherwise? How can he consistently seek after truth when he is convinced that he holds it? Who else can teach him religious truth when he believes that an infallible Church gives him God's word and interprets it in the true and only sense?”

  • Once he does so (joins the Catholic church), he has no further use for his reason. He enters the Church, an edifice illumined by the superior light of revelation and faith. He can leave reason like a lantern at the door.” Explanation of Catholic Morals, A Concise, Reasoned, and Popular Exposition of Catholic Morals, by John H. Stapleton, p 76, Benziger Brothers, NY, 1913. (John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Chapter xxiii. the consistent believer (1904); Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York )

  • "Obey blindly , that is, without asking reasons. Be careful, then, never to examine the directions of your confessor....In a word, keep before your eyes this great rule, that in obeying your confessor you obey God. Force yourself then, to obey him in spite of all fears. And be persuaded that if you are not obedient to him it will be impossible for you to go on well; but if you obey him you are secure. But you say, if I am damned in consequence of obeying my confessor, who will rescue me from hell? What you say is impossible." St. Alphonsus De Liguori, True Spouse of Christ, p 352, Benziger Brothers, NY

  • We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication. — Pope Alexander IV (1254-1261) in “Sextus Decretalium”, Lib. V, c. ii: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/archive/index.php/t-51631.html

  • * Do not converse with heretics even for the sake of defending the faith, for fear lest their words instil their poison in your mind. Bl. Isaias Boner of Krakow (Polish, Augustinian priest, theologian, professor of Scripture, d. 1471)

  • Thus, the Church forbids the faithful to communicate with those unbelievers who have forsaken the faith by corrupting it, such as heretics, or by renouncing it, such as apostates.

  • the Church forbids the faithful to communicate with those unbelievers who have forsaken the faith they once received, either by corrupting the faith, as heretics, or by entirely renouncing the faith, as apostates, because the Church pronounces sentence of excommunication on both.” St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica

  • Is it permitted for Christians to be present at, or to take part in, conventions, gatherings, meetings, or societies of non-Catholics which aim to associate together under a single agreement everyone who, in any way, lays claim to the name of Christian? In the negative! - (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos)

  • "One must neither pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the Church, whether clergy or layman: let him be excommunicated". (Council of Carthage)

  • "No one shall pray in common with heretics and schismatics" - Council of Laodicea.

  • Rome, Italy, Feb 19, 2010 / 02:03 pm (CNA).- The president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, Cardinal Walter Kasper, announced this week that Pope Benedict XVI will visit the Evangelical Lutheran Church located in Rome on March 14 for an ecumenical celebration.



380 posted on 07/18/2011 6:47:13 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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