An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

Buckeye Firearms Association ^ | 8 July,2011 | Greg Ellifritz

[UnwashedPeasant]

same data in table format

	25ACP	.22 (short, long and long rifle)	.32 (both .32 Long and .32 ACP)	.380 ACP	.38 Special	9mm Luger	.357 (both magnum and Sig)	.40 S&W	.45 ACP	.44 Magnum	Rifle (all Centerfire)	Shotgun (All, but 90% of results were 12 gauge)
# of people shot	68	154	25	85	199	456	105	188	209	24	126	146
# of hits	150	213	38	150	373	1121	179	443	436	41	176	178
% of hits that were fatal	25%	34%	21%	29%	29%	24%	34%	25%	29%	26%	68%	65%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation	2.2	1.38	1.52	1.76	1.87	2.45	1.7	2.36	2.08	1.71	1.4	1.22
% of people who were not incapacitated	35%	31%	40%	16%	17%	13%	9%	13%	14%	13%	9%	12%
One-shot-stop %	30%	31%	40%	44%	39%	34%	44%	45%	39%	59%	58%	58%
Accuracy (head and torso hits)	62%	76%	78%	76%	76%	74%	81%	76%	85%	88%	81%	84%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)	49%	60%	72%	62%	55%	47%	61%	52%	51%	53%	80%	86%

[Principle Over Politics]

I found the same to be true with the balistic tips. Strange that so many westerns states outfitters and guides will not allow them.

[BooBoo1000]

My selection of hand gun for personal protection, seem to work well, I have had to produce it twice in bad situations, and both times the Smith and Wesson 44 Special loaded with 240 grain simi-wadcutter has proved to be the final word in the argument.God Bless Elmer Keith.

[ASA Vet]

Strange that so many westerns states outfitters and guides will not allow them.

Maybe they charge extra for following a wounded animals trail. Don't know, never used such services.

[UnwashedPeasant]

Does it make sense for the analyst to combine data for the .357 magnum and the .357 Sig?

I thought these were very different.

[Principle Over Politics]

So you are saying that you have shot someone in self protection using your S&W 44 Special?

You say “produce” and not “shot”. If you were brandishing as a method to deter, why do you think that particular model and caliber was more affective than any other for that purpose?

[NFHale]

For what it’s worth...I practice the “Holy Trinity” method - heart-heart-head, from a cold draw - so I won’t ever have to worry about it.

I carry a G19 124g NATO hardball, and a backup SW642 with Nyclad hollow +Ps.

I’m here to tell ya brother - the attacker WILL be stopped.

[Charles Martel]

Does it make sense for the analyst to combine data for the .357 magnum and the .357 Sig?

I thought these were very different.

I don't know much about the Sig cartridge, but I suspect it has turned up in very few shootings compared with the .357 Magnum. Doubt if it skewed the data much, if at all. But I agree - unless the projectile weights and muzzle velocities are *very* comparable, the two cartridges should be analyzed separately.

[nerdwithagun]

First off, I am not a hunter. I do love guns and I do read articles and forums on hunting. I have read many times that ballistic tip (we are talking about the rubber tips, right?) have a tendency to shatter if you are too close. Lots of horror stories of hog and deer with broken bones, but not severed vitals. On the flip side, I have heard wonderful things about Nosler and that they won't shatter at shorter distances.

[trebb]

It's a .32 pistol and pretty old. My dad was an avid collector and brought me up in the NRA. He gave it to my wife some years ago as a not-too-bulky means of self-defense. I'm not sure of the model, but it is stamped with:

FABRIQUE NATIONALE D'ARMES GUERRE HERSTAL BELGIQUE

BROWNING'S PATENT DEPOSE

It's comfortable in my hand and small enough that it fits her hand just fine.

[trebb]

A couple things about your post:

Wearing armor and being prepared for a 7.62 is nothing like taking a .45 hollow point to the flesh. Slow down the 7.62 a bit and the danger is of a clean-through shot that misses a vital spot - the sheer speed and liquid shock wave of it going through flesh is the greatest knock-down power. Plus the bullet itself is pretty light and easily deflected by even twigs and brush that a slow, "benign" .45 wouldn't even notice. Show me a man that remains on his feet when popped in the chest with a .45 hollow point and I'll show you someone who is extremely bulky and still going to fall.

I never claimed anything about a .45 being good for concealed use - I have a couple Army Colt .45s. With the standard barrel and not too much wear, you can do a decent job at 50 feet for competition shooting. Being slow slugs and since the pistols weren't really finely machined target-grade weapons, one can't expect super accuracy. Besides most self-defense usage is well within the 50 foot range and pointing without using the sights is fine for that range.

[hiredhand]

I'm not sure. The data on the .357 is impressive, but in the grand scheme of things, it's splitting hairs to compare them all as apples to apples. :-)

[hiredhand]

We run that same drill here with the 1911 using a “mild” 185gr SWC handload. Outside of about 20 feet our percentage of headshots on the final round drops a lot though. What distance do you practice at? Thanks buddy. :-)

[hiredhand]

Er... military training? No military training teaches one to stay focused and relatively level headed during a lethal force encounter. Nothing I was ever taught prepared me for an encounter with the very first person who actually wanted to harm me because I wore a uniform. If a person were ever in a "hot spot" over time, that will definitely cause a different mindset and reactions. But it's difficult to impossible to actually "train" people to be calm under the conditions in a firefight... or any other sort of fight for that matter.

There's a lot of documentation and still living witnesses that unfortunate event in 1986 and the FBI made many, MANY tactical errors. Among other things, they were policing brass before reloading. But aside from that, it was largely an issue of .38 SPCL revolvers up against a determined badguy who had a Ruger Mini-14 (or where there two of them?). There are many documented instances of people sustaining lethal wounds and not realizing it until they collapse from blood loss.

Not to be hard on you... I just doubt that military training had anything to do with it. :-)

[hiredhand]

Yes indeed! Size MATTERS. However, hydraulic shock transfer from rounds such as the .357 Mag and .357 Sig can also tear major vessels, whereas the (comparatively) slow moving .45 ACP is less apt to do this.

I get a chuckle out of the fact that people even compare anything nowadays to a handgun and it's cartridge first devised/manufactured over one hundred years ago and remains largely unchanged today... 1911 .45ACP. How cool is that? :-)

[hiredhand]

8,000 pounds at 45mph runnin yer ass over is tough to deal with! LOL! You crack me up. :-)

[hiredhand]

There’s also the en-bloc clip such as employed by the M-1 Garrand. :-)

[freepersup]

I agree that your self defense selection for human quarry is damn near unmatchable, what with the destructive nature of the caliber matched with type specific ammo.

Off topic- I plan on carrying the Ruger Alaskan Red Hawk 454 Casull into grizzly bear territory due to the ballistics. I only wish that they made it in auto w/ a high capacity mag. ;0)

FWIW: I dig your sensibilities around these parts Squantos.

freepersup

aim small - miss small

[ASA Vet]

I was able to find magazines for two different model years, but no clip.

[marktwain]

Does it make sense for the analyst to combine data for the .357 magnum and the .357 Sig? I thought these were very different.

The .357 Sig was designed to duplicate what was thought to be the best .357 magnum load for stopping power. That was a semi-jacketed hollowpoint 125 grain load at 1450 feet per second or better.

I suspect that is why he grouped them together.