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Birther Card: Coulter's Turn
The American Thinker ^ | July 6, 2011 | Cindy Simpson

Posted on 07/06/2011 7:29:22 AM PDT by wintertime

The Birther Card game continues, with Obama's long-form birth certificate on top of the pot and "Made in the USA" coffee mugs around the table.

Watching the match unfold leads me to agree with Donald Trump: lots of smart people are birthers, and they don't like the way the game has been played. I suspect most Americans do not appreciate the fact that the issue has been played as a game at all -- both by the mainstream media and the President himself.

If polled the usual question: "Do you believe Obama was born in Hawaii?" -- Obama's behavior would provoke me (even though I do believe he was) to answer, "Beats me!" (I plan on wearing my Obama "Made in the USA" t-shirt so they won't ask.) Regardless, even a "Yes" response, if not followed with denouncements of all doubters, may still earn a Republican the label of racist birther.

(Excerpt) Read more at americanthinker.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: barrysoetoro; birthcertificate; birthers; certifigate; coulter; eligibility; fraud; naturalborncitizen; obama; usurper
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To: jh4freedom
Minor v Happersett has had no impact on any lawsuit challenging Zero’s eligibility. It was a women’s suffrage case.

Nevertheless, the Supreme Court defined the term "natural born citizen" to mean, without doubt, a person born to two citizen parents. The subject of their decision, woman's suffrage, is irrelevant. Their definition stands to this day. Their reasons for turning down cases have not had anything to do with dispute over this definition but the standing of the plaintiffs to seek redress.

Zero’s defenders also use Minor v Happersett for their cause with the statement: “The Constitution does not in so many words say who shall be a natural born citizen. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.”

Whereupon the Supreme Court resorted to the other sources to determine that "natural born citizen" mean a person who is born to two citizen parents. Barry's defenders have no support whatsoever in Minor v Happersett.
121 posted on 07/07/2011 12:09:20 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: jh4freedom
The “E” in FRE stands for “evidence.” Judges don’t accept evidence at a pretrial phase and no lawyer in their right mind allows their client to go to trial when they can get a lawsuit dismissed.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. One way to file a motion to dismiss is called "Motion to dismiss based upon documentary evidence" where the documentary evidence "establishes a defense to the asserted claims as a matter of law." In one of Obama's cases, his defense advised judicial notice of the factlack dot org website, which is odd because they could have submitted the actual birth certificate as an exhibit.

When Senator McCain and the Republican National Committee were sued on the grounds that John McCain’s birth in Panama made him ineligible, neither lawyers representing Senator McCain nor the Republican Party submitted his birth certificate to the Court.

McCain's birth certificate was irrelevant to the motion because Hollander's complaint was that McCain was not an NBC regardless of whether he was born in Colon Hospital or at the hospital on the submarine base. This is different than Obama's sitatution because his place of birth would make a difference while McCain's would not.

122 posted on 07/07/2011 12:52:42 PM PDT by edge919
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To: aruanan

“Nevertheless, the Supreme Court defined the term “natural born citizen” to mean, without doubt, a person born to two citizen parents. The subject of their decision, woman’s suffrage, is irrelevant. Their definition stands to this day. Their reasons for turning down cases have not had anything to do with dispute over this definition but the standing of the plaintiffs to seek redress.”

You are correct that plaintiffs’ attorneys have not been able to present a lead plaintiff in any of the eligibility lawsuits who would be granted standing to sue.
However there are no issues of standing on the criminal side of the Justice system. A grand jury investigation of Zero for election fraud and forgery is the way to go.

“Whereupon the Supreme Court resorted to the other sources to determine that “natural born citizen” mean a person who is born to two citizen parents. Barry’s defenders have no support whatsoever in Minor v Happersett.”

However Zero’s attorneys have used Minor v Happersett in conjunction with US v Wong Kim Ark and other Supreme Court decisions to make their case for eligiblity.

If you haven’t already been there, check out this pro-Zero is eligible blog and scroll down to the “Supreme Court cases” section and read what Zero’s lawyers use as their precedents to get challenges to Zero’s eligibility thrown out.
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/the-great-mother-of-all-natural-born-citizen-quotation-pages/#Supreme


123 posted on 07/07/2011 12:54:11 PM PDT by jh4freedom (Mr. "O" has got to go.)
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To: edge919

Sorry, but this is nonsense. One way to file a motion to dismiss is called “Motion to dismiss based upon documentary evidence” where the documentary evidence “establishes a defense to the asserted claims as a matter of law.” In one of Obama’s cases, his defense advised judicial notice of the factlack dot org website, which is odd because they could have submitted the actual birth certificate as an exhibit.


There was no need to file any other motion other than a dismissal for lack of standing. The defense attorneys decided to keep it simple.
As a defendant, Zero doesn’t have to prove his eligibility, plaintiffs have to prove his ineligibility.

“McCain’s birth certificate was irrelevant to the motion because Hollander’s complaint was that McCain was not an NBC regardless of whether he was born in Colon Hospital or at the hospital on the submarine base. This is different than Obama’s sitatution because his place of birth would make a difference while McCain’s would not.”

The fact remains that McCain and the RNC did not submit a birth certificate in evidence in Hollander v McCain. They too went for a motion to dismiss for lack of standing.

Why play a high hole card on the first round of betting?


124 posted on 07/07/2011 3:28:14 PM PDT by jh4freedom (Mr. "O" has got to go.)
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To: Texas Eagle
Hardly worth it Texas Eagle, their loons of the first order; immersed in their paranoid, conspiracy laden, delusions that nothing--no amount of evidence--will ever convince them either that Obama is an NBC, or that the battle was over long ago and our time is better spent dealing with real issues that threaten our nation.

Their comments, however, are occasionally amusing . . . like the one to which you responded. I guess coherence is optional when you're a birfer. :)
125 posted on 07/07/2011 5:23:36 PM PDT by Sudetenland (There can be no freedom without God--What man gives, man can take away.)
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To: Sudetenland

AAARRRGGGHHH - - their => they’re


126 posted on 07/07/2011 5:24:57 PM PDT by Sudetenland (There can be no freedom without God--What man gives, man can take away.)
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To: jh4freedom
There was no need to file any other motion other than a dismissal for lack of standing. The defense attorneys decided to keep it simple.

What exactly is NOT simple about submitting a document that is self-authenticating in a motion to dismiss that would respond directly to all or at least part of the legal challenge??

As a defendant, Zero doesn’t have to prove his eligibility, plaintiffs have to prove his ineligibility.

This proposes that a plaintiff should prove a negative or an "absence of evidence." Under most states' ballot nomination procedures, candidates only provide a signature. It's pretty easy to point this out in court or point to the newspaper stories that reported Obama was Kenyan-born. Without any legal evidence to show otherwise, this would be sufficient to put the burden of proof back on Obama ... unless, of course, he successfully dodges the issue by hiding behind legal standing.

The fact remains that McCain and the RNC did not submit a birth certificate in evidence in Hollander v McCain. They too went for a motion to dismiss for lack of standing.

McCain's birth certificate was irrelevant to the legal question, although it's interesting to note how that plaintiff had no problems getting copies of birth certificates while no plaintiffs have been able to get copies of Obama's. McCain's MTD made several arguments based on being born within U.S. territory/sovereignty to TWO citizen parent in order to meet the definition of NBC. A birth certificate wasn't necessary because McCain didn't dispute the location of his birth.

Why play a high hole card on the first round of betting?

To ensure a better chance of winning. Why hold it back unless that document doesn't help??

127 posted on 07/07/2011 11:27:03 PM PDT by edge919
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To: edge919

“What exactly is NOT simple about submitting a document that is self-authenticating in a motion to dismiss that would respond directly to all or at least part of the legal challenge??

This proposes that a plaintiff should prove a negative or an “absence of evidence.” Under most states’ ballot nomination procedures, candidates only provide a signature. It’s pretty easy to point this out in court or point to the newspaper stories that reported Obama was Kenyan-born. Without any legal evidence to show otherwise, this would be sufficient to put the burden of proof back on Obama ... unless, of course, he successfully dodges the issue by hiding behind legal standing.

McCain’s birth certificate was irrelevant to the legal question, although it’s interesting to note how that plaintiff had no problems getting copies of birth certificates while no plaintiffs have been able to get copies of Obama’s. McCain’s MTD made several arguments based on being born within U.S. territory/sovereignty to TWO citizen parent in order to meet the definition of NBC. A birth certificate wasn’t necessary because McCain didn’t dispute the location of his birth.

To ensure a better chance of winning. Why hold it back unless that document doesn’t help??”

Either a plaintiff has Article III standing or he doesn’t. The defendant doesn’t decide that, the judge does.

Every standing dismissal was upheld on appeal. That’s 21 appeals that were dismissed.

It is the responsibility of those challenging in a civil action to present plaintiffs who can demonstrate injury in fact.

The issue presented in the Syllabus for Hollander v McCain was stated as: “Issue: Whether Senator John McCain is a “natural born citizen” and eligible to be the President of the United States under the provisions of Article I, Section 2, of the U.S. Constitution.”

I count 74 Obama lawsuits dismissed in original jurisdiction courts, Obviously “standing” has been a successful legal strategy that has been duplicated over and over again.
“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”


128 posted on 07/08/2011 12:05:31 PM PDT by jh4freedom (Mr. "O" has got to go.)
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To: edge919

“What exactly is NOT simple about submitting a document that is self-authenticating in a motion to dismiss that would respond directly to all or at least part of the legal challenge??

This proposes that a plaintiff should prove a negative or an “absence of evidence.” Under most states’ ballot nomination procedures, candidates only provide a signature. It’s pretty easy to point this out in court or point to the newspaper stories that reported Obama was Kenyan-born. Without any legal evidence to show otherwise, this would be sufficient to put the burden of proof back on Obama ... unless, of course, he successfully dodges the issue by hiding behind legal standing.

McCain’s birth certificate was irrelevant to the legal question, although it’s interesting to note how that plaintiff had no problems getting copies of birth certificates while no plaintiffs have been able to get copies of Obama’s. McCain’s MTD made several arguments based on being born within U.S. territory/sovereignty to TWO citizen parent in order to meet the definition of NBC. A birth certificate wasn’t necessary because McCain didn’t dispute the location of his birth.

To ensure a better chance of winning. Why hold it back unless that document doesn’t help??”

Either a plaintiff has Article III standing or he doesn’t. The defendant doesn’t decide that, the judge does.

Every standing dismissal was upheld on appeal. That’s 21 appeals that were dismissed.

It is the responsibility of those challenging in a civil action to present plaintiffs who can demonstrate injury in fact.

The issue presented in the Syllabus for Hollander v McCain was stated as: “Issue: Whether Senator John McCain is a “natural born citizen” and eligible to be the President of the United States under the provisions of Article I, Section 2, of the U.S. Constitution.”

I count 74 Obama lawsuits dismissed in original jurisdiction courts, Obviously “standing” has been a successful legal strategy that has been duplicated over and over again.
“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”


129 posted on 07/08/2011 12:22:29 PM PDT by jh4freedom (Mr. "O" has got to go.)
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To: jh4freedom
Either a plaintiff has Article III standing or he doesn’t. The defendant doesn’t decide that, the judge does.

A defendant has to consider whether Art III standing is going to be sufficient grounds in filing a motion to dismiss. There's no reason to play only one card when a self-authenticating document could help negate the legal claim against the defendant. McCain's legal team did NOT rely only on a legal-standing argument in his MTD. They addressed the merits of Hollander's eligibility claim. A birth certificate was not necessary or relevant to their response to the elibility question in the MTD. Obama probably wouldn't have had 74 lawsuits to contend with if he had filed a legal birth certificate as evidence in the first MTD.

130 posted on 07/08/2011 12:34:22 PM PDT by edge919
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To: edge919

“A defendant has to consider whether Art III standing is going to be sufficient grounds in filing a motion to dismiss. There’s no reason to play only one card when a self-authenticating document could help negate the legal claim against the defendant. McCain’s legal team did NOT rely only on a legal-standing argument in his MTD. They addressed the merits of Hollander’s eligibility claim. A birth certificate was not necessary or relevant to their response to the elibility question in the MTD. Obama probably wouldn’t have had 74 lawsuits to contend with if he had filed a legal birth certificate as evidence in the first MTD.”

I think you’re forgetting that for an Article III standing dismissal, the judge must accept all of the plaintiff’s allegations as true.
Therefore all of the judges and justices who have ruled on standing have stipulated that Obama is ineligible; was not born in Hawaii; surrendered his American citizenship when adopted by Lolo Soetoro and never reinstated it; is ineligible because his father was a Kenyan; and/or is ineligible due to his own birth outside the US, et cetera.

In spite of those stipulations, the judge has to determine whether the plaintiff suffered injury-in-fact; did the plaintiff state a claim upon which relief can be granted and does the court have jurisdiction over the matter at hand.

Standing determinations precede dismissals on evidentiary grounds.

Many of the eligibility lawsuits that were dismissed on standing grounds did not sue Obama directly so the 74 lawsuit number is the total number of rulings whether Obama was a defendant or not.


131 posted on 07/08/2011 5:48:41 PM PDT by jh4freedom (Mr. "O" has got to go.)
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To: jh4freedom

Sorry, but you seem to be drifting pretty far from your original argument. If the judge “must accept all of the plaintiffs allegations as true,” then it makes even less sense for Obama to NOT submit a legal birth certificate as evidence in an MTD.


132 posted on 07/09/2011 10:06:07 AM PDT by edge919
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To: edge919

Sorry, but you seem to be drifting pretty far from your original argument. If the judge “must accept all of the plaintiffs allegations as true,” then it makes even less sense for Obama to NOT submit a legal birth certificate as evidence in an MTD.


Far afield? We’re still discussing motions to dismiss on standing grounds, aren’t we?
It would be redundant to submit any defense evidence on a motion to dismiss on standing grounds. The judge is already viewing the lawsuit from the legal perspective of the plaintiff.
In any event, the proof is in the pudding...failure to submit a birth certificate has not cost Zero or any other defendant in Zero eligibility lawsuits. They’ve all been dismissed without a birth certificate whether Zero was a defendant or not.


133 posted on 07/09/2011 11:36:00 AM PDT by jh4freedom (Mr. "O" has got to go.)
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To: jh4freedom
Far afield? We’re still discussing motions to dismiss on standing grounds, aren’t we?

This was your original comment:

Any court of law in the land will accept a certified copy of a birth certificate issued by a state/county/city as long as it contains the official state/county/city Seal and an authorizing signature of an official of the state/county/city.

This statement doesn't mean a whole lot given that Obama had plenty of opportunities to present his birth certificate to several courts of law and refused.

It would be redundant to submit any defense evidence on a motion to dismiss on standing grounds.

We've already discussed that it's not since one of the ways to file a MTD is based upon documentary evidence that deals with the specific legal question being invoked. We've also noted that Obama's defense has pointed to non-documentary evidence while it would have been much easier to present an actual LEGAL certificate, if one really exists. And we've already noted that there likely wouldn't have been 74 lawsuits if Obama had simply showed legal evidence in the very first lawsuit. There's no need to make excuses for hiding whatever documentary evidence he might have ... unless it's not valid.

134 posted on 07/11/2011 7:36:45 AM PDT by edge919
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To: butterdezillion

That’s interesting. Hang in there!


135 posted on 07/22/2011 2:41:05 PM PDT by bvw
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To: Sudetenland

Please don’t be mean to albatrosses.

Obama’s installation and performance in office is the phenomenon unchecked by any rationality and honest accountability. His behavior in office has been criminal, craven and venal, seditious, and treasonous.

It is almost certain, using only the observed MO once he gained the office, that he also gained that office by fraud.

He is a man of habits.


136 posted on 07/22/2011 2:58:49 PM PDT by bvw
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