Posted on 05/25/2011 8:29:25 PM PDT by sickoflibs
Never were "donkeys" they were originally and always will be Jackasses.
Named after Andrew Jackson.
Sorry, if I went overboard with the pings :)
I really would like to see an honest debate of both sides of this issue because after all, even freepers are split on it let alone Republicans, Last night I got called a liberal for not blindly supporting the Ryan plan as is. So since I still have Rush 24/7 I figured I would post Rush's rallying cry for why we must sell the Ryan plan as is now, and see if his points are similar or the same as those strongly defending it here.
Yes, the thing that many dont understand (and Rush is not explaining this for obvious reasons) is that when people go in a nursing home long term , costs ~ 6K per month here~ 72K per year, 720K over 10 years if they survive that long , that medicare will not pay for it. If they have no assets, or after their assets get used up by the nursing care, medicaid pays that nursing care bill. A good example is a person who gets a bad stroke at 75 (probably millions of them) and cant move without being picked up out of bed.
Did you see the post yesterday that said that Nearly half of Americans say that they definitely or probably couldn’t come up with $2,000 in 30 days??? at Nearly Half of Americans Are ‘Financially Fragile(FR post)’ Think privatization would change them to savers?? Even if they did what would the economic consequences be in the shorter term on a consumption based economy? If we really want people to save why does the Federal Reserve under both parties keep interest rates so low to stimulate consumption and speculation, keeping us in these boom/bust cycles?
There is no happy solution for this, medicaid will break the government and there is NO private option for those people above but an earlier death, and you know no one proposing any reform will talk about anything as unpleasant as that. Those opposing any reform will visualize that in dramatic commercials to get the upper hand in the next election.
You made some really good points about that special election.
If a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound? If a Republican speaks to a group of reporters, does he make the news?
Take a look at this on nursing homes. It was on our local news.
http://www.wreg.com/wreg-nursinghomeagreement-story,0,4931556.story
Then you have to take into account a lot of seniors don’t need nursing homes, just assisted living, or a visiting LPN once a week, maybe a housekeeper once every 2 weeks to do the heavy stuff. Would be a lot cheaper than a nursing home.
But 0’care guts that.
As would the Ryan plan with everything else if it had a chance of being law.
Your point is well taken though. Government is notorious for creating huge costs to themselves (taxpayers) with congressionally mandated spending reductions. The local paper did an expose a number of years ago on the F-22 development and explained that one reason the price doubled and tripled was congress kept cutting spending on it's key required capabilities that had to be funded and contracted years later at many times the original cost, all for nothing.
" I know of this firsthand unfortunately. Not only do nursing care homes here cost ~ 6K per month but unless the patient has relatives that are there every day watching and raising a stink many of the patients end up back in the emergency room or dead within a year due to neglect.
There was an related article on this here the past week: nursing homes have to hire the cheapest staff as possible not even providing them with health insurance because nursing care is so expensive and medicaid pays so little. This is a terrible situation our country is in that was created by many unseemily related factors and national decisions, many of them increased our average lifespan without thinking of the consequences, all popular too.
I think you responded to my alternate plan. The main benefit of that privatization plan I made up is it would have some chance of being signed into law someday. The Ryan plan has NO chance of ever being law as is, never did, not even with a Republican president, so it saves not one dime. I dont care how many arms they try to twist now.
Back to your point, I believe you are making a moral argument about the immorality of taxpayers being forced to pay to care for those nearly completely incapable of doing anything for themselves who Will go in nursing homes, as they been doing for > 40 years now. That is a valid argument.
But to make that moral argument seriously you have to take responsibility for the proposal you are supporting and it's consequences too, because the practical consequences raise moral issues within themselves. Will voters ever vote to throw patients damaged with serious strokes out of hospitals into the streets because there is no-place to take care of them in a privatized system? If this is necessary to save the country which it may be, then Ryan should say so specifically and shouldn't deny it and call it a lie, that is all I ask.
Also is the moral(ly flawed) proposal of dividing the country up into clear winners and losers, at 55 (born ~ around 1956.) The winners born before 1956 get their medical bills paid as always , the losers born after 1956 not only are forced to pay for the winners under the Ryan plan, but when it is their time under the hypothetical Ryan plan they get told “Sorry, we are out of money. Please go away (even if you cant get out of a bed) and die because we don't want to admit you even exist. you existence is contrary to our beliefs. ” as you and another freeper implied is necessary for the Ryan plan to do. Obviously this scenario will be played to death by Democrats to win the next election, but it raises real moral issues too that would need to be debated before they are forced on voters. Clearly the 55 threshold is not needed to save the county, that is just a cheap political gimmick and negatives most of the other arguments.
These are really brutal issues and I sure never gave Democrats one moment of peace here on Obama-care, posting lots of articles and pings on it, so I cant just drink the Koolaid on this issue either, in fact I was one of those here opposing Republicans running on protecting entitlement benefits for political gain predicting it would backfire as it did.
I just want an honest debate. I am not one of those against reform ,or for entitlement as a right.
40 years??? Ryan(you) only give the 55 year olds just 10 years to build up that $1M saved for nursing home care.
8% ??? You see 8% ? The Federal reserve is keeping savings interest rates at about ~ 1/2 % while driving up food and energy costs, with another major market crash very likely within the next 10 years.
If you look at your arguments with some more realistic assumptions you will see that privatization is much more brutal than Republicans want to admit. Maybe it is necessary, but if so lets have an honest discussion about both current medicare options and privatization options.
Thanks for your illuminating posts.
Being pro-life does not end at birth. Caring for the unable is pro-life. We can decide if we are to be a shining city on the hill or the planet of the apes.
The pivotal question is - what is the right thing to do. Not - how much money does grandma have. Conservatives should be for conserving more than money.
It begs the great moral dilemma of our age: How much and who decides?
Obviously, when these are government programs the government decides through the direction of democratically elected officials. And, elected officials will NEVER advocate for "rationing" or cutting somebody off. NEVER. Won't happen.
And that means the US and every Western Democracy will go into sovereign default. Complete financial destruction...so that ONLY the total destruction of all wealth and resources will be the end determinant.
See, I agree with that. That was why it was so important for House Republicans to keep their REAL promise to defund the NEW entitlement Obamacare before it becomes politically impossible to ‘take that away’ as it will be characterized. But they gave up on that real promise and moved to medicare oppose of last years positions which p,,ed off many of those here.
Medicare is a very difficult issue that splits even many conservatives here and I appreciate everyones opinions on it. It is morally complex and both practically and politically difficult to deal with because it is a ponzi tax scheme sold as an entitlement that we own, which we really cannot own.
I been reading both sides here the past few weeks and both sides have valid arguments. It is not back and white moral clean issue as Rush tries to make it out.
The 55 threshold political scheme negates most of the other arguments for the Ryan plan, it is it's weakest link that was added to try to get political support.
See, I agree with that. That was why it was so important for House Republicans to keep their REAL promise to defund the NEW entitlement Obamacare before it becomes politically impossible to ‘take that away’ as it will be characterized. But they gave up on that real promise and moved to medicare oppose of last years positions which p,,ed off many of those here.
Medicare is a very difficult issue that splits even many conservatives here and I appreciate everyones opinions on it. It is morally complex and both practically and politically difficult to deal with because it is a ponzi tax scheme sold as an entitlement that we own, which we really cannot own.
I been reading both sides here the past few weeks and both sides have valid arguments. It is not back and white moral clean issue as Rush tries to make it out.
The 55 threshold political scheme negates most of the other arguments for the Ryan plan, it is it's weakest link that was added to try to get political support.
Here is a question I don't think anybody is asking: How did we survive for 200 years without nursing homes busting the federal budget? I think part of the reason is that families used to take care of their own to a much greater extent than they do now. Families still do that in many cultures.
I can hear you thinking, "We can't go back to those days." But what are we going toward now?
” Medicare is a very difficult issue that splits even many conservatives here and I appreciate everyones opinions on it. It is morally complex and both practically and politically difficult to deal with because it is a ponzi tax scheme sold as an entitlement that we own, which we really cannot own. “
1) Medicare is rife with multi billions in fraud alone, and no money is spent to stop it. (Unlike the private sector, which does a good job of eliminating it)
2) Illegal immigrants
3) All doctors paid the same, whether they accomplish anything or not.
Fix these things, and it would make a huge difference. But federal programs are always incompetent.
” Here is a question I don’t think anybody is asking: How did we survive for 200 years without nursing homes busting the federal budget? I think part of the reason is that families used to take care of their own to a much greater extent than they do now. Families still do that in many cultures. “
Families still do that here, but not nearly enough, because Nanny state USA picks up the tab. They don’t have to do it.
Another Mephistophelian bargain from our "friends" in Washington. I think I would rather stay at home. My father had 11 brothers and sisters. Only one of them ever was in a nursing home, and she picked it out and paid for it herself.
There are people who can't make it without financial help, (e. g. those whose entire family are druggies) but I miss some of the old ways.
Thanks sickoflibs.
I can’t answer for the Ryan plan as I don’t read legal language. And I’ve not seen much except the libs explanation of Ryan’s. But we’ve all read plenty from Heritage, WSJ, Wash Times, Examiner to know 0’care is BAD.
Now they need to explain Ryan’s plan in the same way.
I still want answers to questions I’m not getting. Is it all cut/gut or are they going to ‘fix’ the 40 years of palm greasing they built into Medicare that drive up the cost.
Why are they only asking lobbyist who are usually former congress critters. No asking the patients who are most affected. Medicare is RATIONED health care. You are allowed a certain amount of days in hospital for any given illness. Even if you really need a couple of more days.
I shake my head, because no one is listening to the common man. We see what is happening, we can tell them, they don’t want to listen to the SERFS.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.