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Posted on 05/02/2011 6:32:31 AM PDT by ml/nj
The economy, job creation in the private sector, runaway deficit spending, creeping euro-style social democracy, fighting cap and trade legislation, free speech, etc.
There is a lot to talk about!
*******
Bound book: So you are saying that the copy of Obama's long form birth certificate that Obama showed us on April 27, 2011 came from a book and not from microfilm.
1. Obama ordered a new copy of his long form birth certificate: Can you also explain why Obama ordered a long form birth certificate in April 2007 in the first place?
2. Do you think that the President of the United States simply lost his? When did he lose it? People lose birth certificates all the time.
3. June 2007: The date stamped on short form Obama birth certificate found at FactCheck site, where the number is NOT blocked out.
4. June 2007: If Obama ordered a short form in June 2007, it means to me that if Obama lost his long form birth certificate, it would have been in 2007 or earlier, because most people don't go to the trouble of ordering a copy of their birth certificate, long or short form, unless they lose the one they had.
5. Long form vs. short form: And why would Obama order a short form in June 2007 if he already had a long form stored with his other valuable family documents?
6. OBAMA MOTHER'S SIGNATURE: What kind of pen did she use? Can anyone tell what type of pen she used? In another thread, someone asked if such a pen was invented yet.
7. "Stanley" in parenthesis: I'm sorry, but after looking at samples of Obama's mother's signature over the years on the internet, (1) I didn't see any signature where she put her first name "Stanley" in parenthesis, and (2) she started her signature mostly with "Stanley" or with a capital "S", not with her middle name "Ann."
8. My opinion is this: SOMEONE ELSE signed Obama's mother's name to the long form birth certificate. Putting "Stanley" ---Obama's mother's legal first name---in parenthesis and on top, to the left of the main part of the signature is a bizarre act that I don't think Obama's mother, or most of us, would do to our first name on such am important document like a birth certificate, even if, like many people, she went by her middle name "Ann" most of the time instead of her legal first name "Stanley."
9. Obama's mother's signature with "Stanley" in parenthesis: It looks like whoever signed Obama's mother's name forgot the "Stanley" part and tried to correct the error by making two mistakes that made the signature look even more bizarre: The person clumsily wrote "Stanley" above the main part of the signature, because it looks like the person did not leave any room to the left of "Ann" to squeeze in "Stanley". The person compounded the mistake by putting "Stanley" in parenthesis instead of writing "Stanley" WITHOUT any parenthesis at all. In additiion, when the person rushed to add "Stanley" as a side note to the signature and putting it in parenthesis, the person, in my opinion, wrote "Stanley" in a handwriting style that is not consistent to the way Obama's mother would have written "Stanley".
10. By putting "Stanley" in parenthesis, in my opinion, the person unknowingly showed disrespect to the "Stanley" name, but I don't believe that Obama's mother would have shown such disrespect to her own first name, even if, while growing up, she may not have liked it very much because "Stanley" is normally a boy's first name.
11. Again, I don't believe that Obama's mother signed her name to the long form birth certificate because of the way "Stanley" is put in parenthesis above and to the left of the main part of the signnature "Ann Dunham Obama".
12. I think that the person was concentrating so much on making sure that he got "Obama" in the signature that he forgot to put "Stanley" in the signature. So he made Obama's mother's signature look bizarre by adding Obama's mother's first name "Stanley" to the signature and, for some unknown weird reason, putting it in parenthesis, because there was no room at the front of the signature where he could squeeze in "Stanley." Bad mistake.
As for me scanning something, I'm not going to bother. You could ask me to go for a long walk and then come back ans look again because my EXPERIENCE tells me it is not going to change anything. The internet is full of all sorts of things. It is incumbent upon you and others to come up with pre-existing examples which demonstrate similar phenomena. I've looked. I cannot find a single one.
ML/NJ
That’s a very good point. Are there any FReepers out there who are handwriting experts ?
This is a question for you or anybody who knows more about computers than me (which would be just about everybody. lol)
What editing capabilities does OCR allow? Suppose a person scanned an image of an advertisement from a magazine. If it was with optical character recognition would it allow them to change the words in the ad? If so, how would they get the new words in there? Would they cut and paste them from someplace else, matching fonts the best they can? Would it matter whether what they pasted was text or a graphic?
Trying to figure out how this works. Any help I can get is greatly appreciated. =)
1. ORIGINAL: Is the original in a bound book like former health director Fukino said, or is it on microfilm or microfiche? That is, is the long form birth certificate that Obama displayed at his April 27, 2011 press conference taken from a certificate stored in a bound book, or was it taken from microfilm or microfiche?
We don't know.
2. NORDYKE TWINS: They were born one day after Obama on Aug. 5, but they have lower numbers.
This is a question that's been widely asked. If Jerome Corsi is correct that certificates were all stamped sequentially based on date, he has something interesting. If they were on pre-printed forms or if (as another theory pretty strongly suggests) they were processed in some regional scheme, then there's probably not an inconsistency there - except for the latter theory alleges he was only examined at Kapiolani.
The latter still puts him in Hawaii at a few days old. It would probably be difficult to get from Kenya to there and fake US citizenship. Not impossible, but so far the theory doesn't seem to make sense to me. But I need to think more about it.
3. Would the Nordyke twins' certificates be in the same bound book that Fukino said Obama's long form birth certificate was in?
One would certainly think so.
4. I am having trouble understanding how they transferred Obama's long form birth certificate image from a bound book to a piece of paper that was sent to Obama. Did the certificate have anything on its back?
I would think the page was photographed and transferred to microfiche.
5. Could someone explain to a non-technical, average computer user like me how they did it?
6. For instance, if the certificate is in a bound book, how did they lay the book in a scanner? What type of scanner did they use? Is the scanner like one people have at home except much bigger?
Photograph. How images are pulled from microfiche, I don't know. I expect computers are involved these days.
7. If, for instance, Hawaii officials allowed reporters to examine the certificate in the bound book, what color would it be?
The original bound book might or might not still exist. Otherwise, one would think straight black on white paper would be likely for the original book. But that's speculation at this point.
8. MICROFILM: The long form birth certificate seems to be bent downward on the left side. Does this mean that the image came from microfilm or a bound book?
The curve has been explained as being either from a bound book, or from a curve in a record on film.
9, If it came from a bound book, why isn't the certificate arranged and attached in the book in a way so that a person could easily slip it out of the book to scan it? Why do you have to carry the WHOLE book to the scanner, when one piece of paper would do?
10. GREEN BACKGROUND: Why is there a green background?
Because they pulled the record and printed it on green "safety paper" to make it more official.
11. June 2007: Date stamped on Obama's short form we see on the FactCheck site.
12. June 2007: Why did Obama order a new Hawaii birth certificate in June 2007? Did he simply lose his long form in 2007 or earlier? People lose birth certificates all the time, but I find it strange that the President of the United States got so careless with his long form birth certificate that he lost it. And if Trump had not forced Obama to order a new long form birth certificate in April 2011, then Obama would still be without a long form birth certificate today.
I personally don't know exactly where my birth certificate is. I could most likely find it. But like you say, people lose birth certificates all the time.
13. Stanley signature: I have a problem believing that Obama's mother signed the document because of the way "Stanley" is clumsily placed in parenthesis above the main signature. It looks to me as if the person who signed it forgot the name "Stanley" and clumsily tried to add it to the main body of the signature, but for some unknown reason put it in parenthesis, even though "Stanley" was Obama's mother's legal first name. That is, why not just write "Stanley" WITHOUT parenthesis, because the parenthesis makes it look as if the name "Stanley" does not really belong there.
If I were an 18-year-old girl, and my dad had named me "Stanley," I would go by my middle name. She probably wrote what she went by (instead of her most-likely hated first name) and then the registrar said, "Honey, you have to sign with your FULL LEGAL NAME." It certainly appears to have been done as an afterthought.
14. Stanley signature: I have looked at several signatures of Obama's mother on the internet, and it seems that she usually wrote out "Stanley" or used "S" when signing documents. Also, I didn't find that Obama's mother put parenthesis around "Stanley" in any of her signatures. NOTE: To me, for anyone to put parenthesis around their first name on a birth certificate would be bizarre.
This is one of those odd points that makes it less likely to be a forgery. Why would any forger write anything other than the kind of signature readily known to exist elsewhere?
I'd say a logical explanation is that as she moved more into adult interactions, she learned that most legal interactions required her first name. So from trying to reject the first name she went to accepting that she needed to write it out or represent it with an initial. I would expect the signatures you've seen were done when she was older than 18.
In any event, the fact that she alternated between Stanley and S indicates that she preferred to go by Ann, and that she wasn't 100% consistent.
15. Stanley name: Maybe when Obama's mother was growing up she came to resent the Stanley first name because it is normally a boy's name, but it looks like when it came to signing documents, she had no hesitation in signing "Stanley."
Already commented on.
16. So, as I said, Obama's mother's signature just does not look right to me. To be honest, it looks like someone else signed that long form birth certificate.
Not really a question. I have no opinion on whether the signature is hers, as at this point I haven't tried to compare it to others.
Update:
I said #7 was speculation. Actually, I think we have some evidence that any book was probably was/ is black on white, based on the fact that Edith Coats’ certificate shows a different but still colored background.
On the last point, there are some signatures out on the web:
I’m not a handwriting expert. However, it looks to me as if the LFBC signature is indeed SAD’s. She had two slightly different ways in which she tended to make her a’s. These are reversed in “Obama” a few signatures down, but note that the a’s themselves look very similar.
The t’s are looped once she gets on up into adulthood, but her 1954 signature shows an unlooped t just like the LFBC one. Generally, all of the letters can be seen to be highly similar to their counterparts in other signatures.
Note that I’m not expressing an opinion on whether she wrote her signature on that particular piece of paper, or on whether it was copied there. But in terms of it being her signature, it at least looks that way to me.
It all depends on the software used. With the right software, you can theoretically edit any electronic document you like in any way that you like. Practically speaking, though, it may be much more difficult and time consuming.
A key question that has come up for me again and again in evaluating whether something was done a particular way has been, “Does it make any sense for someone (a forger, particularly) to do it this way?”
I personally don't know exactly where my birth certificate is. I could most likely find it. But like you say, people lose birth certificates all the time.
******
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Obama lost his long form birth certificate in 2007 or earlier, so that is why he ordered a new, short form in June 2007.
1. If Obama, the President of the United States then Senator Obama from Illinois, had lost his long form in 2007 or earlier, I wonder why he didn't go ahead and order a long form in 2007 instead of a short form, because we now know that in 2007, a person could still order a long form certificate.
2. If Obama ordered the 2007 birth certificate by mail, I wonder if Hawaii officials still have that letter on file.
3. So, again, it looks like from 2007 or earlier, Obama never had a long form birth certificate, and if Trump had not forced Obama to show his long form birth certificate in April 2011, then Obama would still not have a long form birth certificate today.
4. KAPIOLANI HOSPITAL: Kapiolani hospital would go a long way to put this long form birth certificate to rest if they would only come out with a statement like the following to verify that Obama was born as stated on Obama's long form birth certificate:
"Kapiolani Hospital is proud to announce and verify that Obama's mother was indeed a patient at this hospital on Aug. 4, 196l. President Obama has given us permission to show his mother's Aug. 4, 1961 records to a select group of reporters representing the major news media. "The reporters will be allowed to touch, examine, and photograph the records and release them to the public.
We are happy to help put this long form birth certificate controversy to rest. "
5. Kapiolani Hospital, in my opinion, has been cospicuously silent since Ogama released his long form birth certificate on April 27, 1961. About a week has passed and still counting, and yet only complete silence form Kapiolani. Why is that?
6. Can you imagine the increase in tourists and in tourists' money to Hawaii once Kapiolani officially comes out and verifies that it is Obama's birth hospital as it is written on Obama's long form birth certificate? What are they waiting for? I could eat my words later, but Kapiolani's comspicuous silence tells me that Obama was not born there.
7/. If Obama contacted Hawaii to get a copy of his long form birth certificate---Obama sent his personal lawyer all the way to Hawaii to get it and bring it back to Washington--- I wonder why he didn't also contact Kapiolani Hospital to get a document that showed that he was born at Kapiolani, and why didn't he give Kapiolani permission to release his mother's records from Aug. 4, 1961 now that she has been deceased for many years? Just some food for thought.
Understand that I'm kind of being devil's advocate here. So I'll mostly skip possibilities such as a) he had it but didn't want other people handling it, b) there's a forgery involved, etc.
I don't know why he ordered a birth certificate in 2007. Assuming he was born in HI, several possibilities come to mind.
It was in storage somewhere in a U-Stor-It in Chicago.
His own copy has sentimental value, and he preferred to keep his own copy and home rather than let a bunch of people handle it (and maybe lose it).
It was just easier to say, "Order me a copy" than to dig it out of storage.
1. If Obama, the President of the United States then Senator Obama from Illinois, had lost his long form in 2007 or earlier, I wonder why he didn't go ahead and order a long form in 2007 instead of a short form, because we now know that in 2007, a person could still order a long form certificate.
If you were ordering a birth certificate (particularly if you were having someone else do it), you'd probably say, "Get me a copy of my birth certificate," and go with what they sent you.
The bigger question is: When the long-form issue became an issue, why didn't he request one then?
2. If Obama ordered the 2007 birth certificate by mail, I wonder if Hawaii officials still have that letter on file.
No idea.
3. So, again, it looks like from 2007 or earlier, Obama never had a long form birth certificate, and if Trump had not forced Obama to show his long form birth certificate in April 2011, then Obama would still not have a long form birth certificate today.
Unless it's in that U-Stor-It, or a book somewhere, that might be correct.
4. KAPIOLANI HOSPITAL: Kapiolani hospital would go a long way to put this long form birth certificate to rest if they would only come out with a statement like the following to verify that Obama was born as stated on Obama's long form birth certificate:
"Kapiolani Hospital is proud to announce and verify that Obama's mother was indeed a patient at this hospital on Aug. 4, 196l. President Obama has given us permission to show his mother's Aug. 4, 1961 records to a select group of reporters representing the major news media. "The reporters will be allowed to touch, examine, and photograph the records and release them to the public.
We are happy to help put this long form birth certificate controversy to rest. "
Legally speaking, that would require permission from Obama. Good luck.
5. Kapiolani Hospital, in my opinion, has been cospicuously silent since Ogama released his long form birth certificate on April 27, 1961. About a week has passed and still counting, and yet only complete silence form Kapiolani. Why is that?
I've observed that unless you're a family member, you can't even call up at a hospital any more and find out whether your best friend is in there recuperating from a heart attack.
Just sayin'.
6. Can you imagine the increase in tourists and in tourists' money to Hawaii once Kapiolani officially comes out and verifies that it is Obama's birth hospital as it is written on Obama's long form birth certificate? What are they waiting for? I could eat my words later, but Kapiolani's comspicuous silence tells me that Obama was not born there.
I doubt it's occurred to them. Plus, they wouldn't care unless it benefited Kapiolani directly. More than that: a particular administrator likely wouldn't care unless it benefited him or her personally.
7/. If Obama contacted Hawaii to get a copy of his long form birth certificate---Obama sent his personal lawyer all the way to Hawaii to get it and bring it back to Washington--- I wonder why he didn't also contact Kapiolani Hospital to get a document that showed that he was born at Kapiolani, and why didn't he give Kapiolani permission to release his mother's records from Aug. 4, 1961 now that she has been deceased for many years? Just some food for thought.
Nobody's created a national uproar for that. They did for a long form birth certificate, and it was costing him politically.
People are motivated by pain. Unless he has real motivaton to do so, he won't write that letter. He has no reason to.
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