Posted on 04/14/2011 1:32:53 PM PDT by Rational Thought
“Stop with the damn birth certificate!” he said. “Stop!” According to him, it is a non-issue that only detracts from the real problem in America, which is progressives fundamentally transforming America.
“If you’re going to lose your country– we’re going to lose it on a birth certificate?” he asked. “You have a real opportunity to talk about American exceptionalism … instead you’re going to waste time on the birth certificate?”
“You’re out of your mind if you think that is a winning argument for the next election. You’re out of your mind. You have to go fight the battle on the principles of America!”
(Excerpt) Read more at theblaze.com ...
I never disagreed with that point. Ill say he is correct too. My view is that does not mean we dont stop trying to influence the message with our views.
Anyhow, I cant keep up with you. See you on another thread.
See me you may, talk with me you won't.
We nearly HAVE lost it over a birth certificate! Doesn't he get that? We've nearly lost it over a birth certificate that ill-informed cowards don't want to talk about. My God, this is Orwellian!
What does that mean?
Ok, let's try again. My point is that there are better issues to focus on than the birth certificate issue. Do you agree?
Related to this point, the birth certificate issue is a valid concern. Do you agree?
Talking about the birth certificate issue makes this issue dominent in the media, making it easier for the MSM to ignore other issues that are more important, like the financial crash the U.S. is headed for because of runaway government spending. Do you agree?
Those are the points I have made. I have made any statement to disagree with your point that the media is liberal - which it most certainly is.
You seem to be saying I am not responding to is your statement that the MSM is liberal. You get no argument from me on that point. I agree.
So what is it that you have said that I have not responded to?
While the following does not address the birther issue and the detractors thereof directly, I think if may give a bit of food for thought. This is the foreword of a book I’m working on bit by bit.
Thinking Critically
Doublespeak, Magical Thinking and the lack of critical thought that led us down the rabbit hole
By Norm Lenhart
Where to begin? How to condense the sheer enormity of the journey that our country, in fact, our entire planet has taken from past critical thought and rational discussion over the issues of the day, to the ‘magical thinking’ and Orwellian ‘Doublespeak’ that permeate modern discourse? The answer is, you can’t. But that does not mean you shouldn’t try.
This is a work that I’ve contemplated for a number of years in one form or another, but I must admit, find nearly overwhelming. As I pondered the direction this book would ultimately take, I found myself standing amidst a whirlwind of contradictions, rationalizations and other justifications for the most nonsensical ideas, beliefs, laws... you name it, that encompass the human condition of the 21st century.
There’s plenty out in the world that attracts my interest and I find more to occupy my mind daily. While my personal political philosophy plants me firmly in the ‘Right Wing’ of the spectrum, I am open to consideration of opposing views... which is the very thing lacking in modern discourse...which leads to dogmatic fanaticism...which leads to ‘magical thinking’... which leads to the point of this book.
Modern society, both through design and the intellectually lazy desire to ‘just get along’ has wholly abandoned the concept of critical thought. We have become walking dualities who drive Hummers festooned with Sierra Club bumper stickers (which I have personally witnessed). In 2010, we watched news broadcasts and read articles telling us the (American) government was doing everything within its power to contain an out-of-control oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, while the next television news segment or article on the newspaper page discussed how that very same government had blocked the usage of “skimmers’ from other countries and the building of physical berms to keep said oil off our coastline over ‘environmental’ concerns that the skimmers’ post-cleaning 99.8% water discharge purity was far too polluting. We listened to then-Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi and in fact, our very President, tell us with straight faces that “The economy is moving in the right direction,” boasting the one month creation of 83,000 new jobs, while the very same month tallied a loss of 125,000 jobs.
“Great news comrade! The economy lost 42,000 jobs this month! This proves the economy is moving in the right direction.”
Yea... Only if that direction leads to destruction.
We experience similar Doublespeak on a daily basis. Contradictions so very blatant that they wouldn’t make it into the pages of a bad gumshoe detective novel for their sheer absurdity. Yet we increasingly accept increasingly absurd proclamations, rules and regulations at face value because it was in a newspaper or some TV talking head said (insert daily propaganda here) was true. Again, we have lost the will, perhaps the very ability to think critically.
In the following pages, I will address a number of these absurdities and related issues. In reading, I ask that you don’t take my comments at face value. Put into use the five great questions that which passes for modern journalism has collectively abandoned in its daily reportage. “Who, What, Where, When and Why.” These are the very foundations of critical thought.
Can you find an issue in any modern media outlet whose writer asks these questions? A politician? More importantly, can you find one that answers them?
Worse yet, can you find a school left in the modern ‘educational system’ that teaches students HOW to THINK at all?
Think critically, perhaps for the first time and ask yourself...Why not?
Thanks to a lack of critical thought in society as a whole today, those of us who choose to turn a critical eye toward … well, pretty much anything, are given the Saul Alinsky ‘Rule 5’ treatment. Alinsky, a 60s radical whose book ‘Rules for Radicals’ has become a veritable Bible for the American Left, stated in Rule 5 that “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” As a result, questioning the statements or actions,(no matter how outlandish) of a minority politician, public figure, co-worker or member of the general public will often result in accusations of racism. If one questions a woman, they are sexist; a homosexual, homophobic and so on. Such ridicule is nothing more than a method to control, because after all, who wants to be associated with racists, sexists and homophobes (more on that word later)? The result? Many now keep their questions to themselves, thus keeping their friends and keeping their jobs.
When people refuse to discuss issues out of a fear they will be labeled with one vile term or another, regardless of any truth involved, how can any rational discussion, of any issue, take place? Put simply, it cannot. The end result is that public discourse has been reduced to the level of schoolyard taunting with modern leftists taking the role of the schoolyard bully (yet another ‘issue’ being pushed by the left to stifle dissent).
With critical thought banished from the conversation, magical thinking quickly rushes in to fill the gaps and as any reader of fantasy can tell you, with magic, anything is possible.
Related to this point, the birth certificate issue is a valid concern. Do you agree?
Not at all. Well, to a degree. The natural born citizen issue is the concern. "My father was a British citizen." All the BC would do is show he hasn't been lying about that. It seems like the idea is, and has been, to make the birth certificate issue a "valid" concern when it is nothing of the sort. Do you agree?
Talking about the birth certificate issue makes this issue dominent in the media, making it easier for the MSM to ignore other issues that are more important, like the financial crash the U.S. is headed for because of runaway government spending. Do you agree?
With the complete statement? No. This issue is the least talked about and the MSM has 24 hours to fill each and every day and they can take up or ignore as many issues as they choose. (cover the car crash or do the human interest story)
The MSM can, like you or I, talk about or ignore multiple issues, as they choose. It is your responsibility to be informed on the issues that concern you. Do you agree?
How is that going to work?
Is a court somewhere going to say that even though everyone knew that Obama's father wasn't a citizen and Obama was allowed to run and take office anyway, that somehow he's ineligible and removed from office?
No court on earth is going to overturn the result of the election.
In the ‘immediate’ future it my well be impossible. That’s why we collectively need to elect people who have honor, integrity, huevos etc. that will ‘purify by fire’ (civilly speaking ;)the current judicial/political system and the cowards in it... and do EVERYTHING we can at EVERY opportunity to get people aware of what’s really going on under their noses.
Is a court somewhere going to say that even though everyone knew that Obama's father wasn't a citizen and Obama was allowed to run and take office anyway, that somehow he's ineligible and removed from office?
I have no idea what "a" court might say these days!
No court on earth is going to overturn the result of the election.
Thanks for sharing your opinion. It's comforting to know that somebody out in the world can read judges' minds and know how they'll decide something beforehand.
I already said that the issue is not “the birth certificate”. The issue is Constitutional principles and the fact that the guy in the White House along with many other people has engaged in crimes.
It is not a light thing, it is not an unimportant thing, and it should not be shut up about so as to focus on “issues”. It IS an issue and a damn big issue. The Dems do not want THIS issue to have light shone on it. It is NOT to their advantage, and the Repubs being spineless gutless creeps (for the most part) are going along with it as well.
I could give a rat’s a** what the media says or does or thinks. The only media that’s important is the media that allows the truth to be told. And more and more Americans are paying attention to such “alternative” media.
What I don’t get is why you, supposedly a conservative on a conservative website - the premier conservative website - thinks that criminal fraud that violates the Constitution should be swept under the rug.
That’s the same position Dems have.
Just sayin’.
You need to write the book. Or at least a series of articles. They could be stand alone threads.
Post-modernism (or whatever the phrase de jour is) boils down to this - there is no Objective Reality, Objective Truth that exists apart from any human being’s beliefs or lack of beliefs.
But, since humans by inherent nature do accept truth in some fashion (usually accepting as truth whatever their minds believe at any given point in time), they think as “true” whatever they believe, and “untrue” whatever the Other Guys believe.
Truth and Belief are mixed up and thought of as the same, as long as it’s My Belief. The Other Guys’ Beliefs are by definition Untruth. Why are Other Guys’ Beliefs not Truth? Because “I” - the judge of Truth - hold different beliefs! (right now anyway, since beliefs always change to some degree.)
So the funny thing is that these people who spout such nonsense as “everyone has their own truth” or that there is no actual Eternal or Objective Reality are living contradictions, their very beliefs and actions and speech contradict themselves at every step. They say everyone can have their own truth, but think and say that “their” truth is really the Real one, and the Other Guys’ truth is wrong. Internal hypocrisy and positions that nullify each other are SOP. It’s like a person who thinks it can be day and night at the same time.
If humans do not accept Objective Truth and Reality that exists independently of anyones’ beliefs or lack of beliefs, then further down the rabbit hole of insanity we will go.
I would further guess that if you pressed him privately, he would express the same sort of doubts about Obama's heritage that many of us have come to suspect. I used to dismiss such things, but I have come to believe that something is definitely amiss here. Have you ever known a single person who could not produce original evidence of the circumstances of his or her birth? It stretches credulity that Obama cannot and will not do so, and it remains troubling that the media continues to treat those that pursue the matter as if they were simply crazy (Alinsky, again). The matter has already been "settled", we are told. By whom? A news media that acts as Obama's communications department?
My very narrow point in this discussion is to consider whether it makes strategic sense for the GOP as a political party to pursue the matter now. My preference would be to leave it to others and have party leaders focus on policy matters. But make no mistake: the matter needs to be pursued and I applaud those who are doing it for having the courage to stand up to the "birther" abuse they have endured. And may the Lord help whoever does find the "smoking gun" that is certainly out there somewhere, one way or the other. They will need far more protection than even Glenn Beck does, because if Obama lied about his eligibility - all Hell will surely break loose.
“Meaning, where did the idea of natural born citizen come from if not Vatel?”
The answer/argument from the other side is “English common law” and Blackstone. It’s the line of reasoning used in Wong Kim Ark.
“it had to come before the cases you cited.” It did indeed, and in many relevent cases, English rulings and Blackstone were cited.
One of the first times Beck interferered with an attempt to raise and demand answers on the BC/eligibility question was one of the tiomes Orly Taitz had gone to court...
Someone had Videotaped a press conference of sorts outside the courthouse right after the case was heard and continued..
I think it was in CA
Orly had come out after and joined a small crowd on the lawn among the trees
She spoke and I think one or 2 others
Then she got excited...she announced that a producer from Becks TV show was there and wanted to speak
He wasnt scheduled and just turned up but she let him speak
Taken in completely by the swarmy jerk
He started right off sneering and attacking Orly as stupid and denouncing she and the other (birthers) as ruining any chance to remove Barry
he boasted that Beck had the right idea and that Beck would get rid of Barry and only beck
He said that going after the BC was the wrong thing to do and that it was holding up what Beck was doing ...getting rid of Barry his way...on the laws he passed
Now this ijit just floored me...He was a snake in the grass
and stunned Orly...she said nothing in protest...she looked like she would cry..
A man called out from under the trees to the Benedict Arnold challenging him to explain himself
he never did... just mocked the man and repeated that Beck was doing it the right way
When the man asked the BecxkBot to explain what he meant and what Beck was doing he just laughed and refused to answer...
This was before the birthers were actually called birthers and before Beck actually openly attacked birthers himself
So it is not a new thing for Beck to attack birthers and ignore the Constitution..
He sent his peon to that press conference in CA just to abuse Orly and demoralize the Constitutionalists
My point is that there are better issues to focus on than the birth certificate issue
________________________________________
I guess n if you want to ignore the Constitution you might pretend there are...
“MY point was the long form BC only resolves something if his birthplace is really in doubt AND his birthplace is the key issue.”
“Making his birthplace the key issue has been the tactic of the left.”
I agree, at least in the sense that Obama and his campaign holds ALL the cards on this issue, and Obama and minions have done what they can to keep the issue alive by not answering all the questions and stirring up the issue as a way to pull their ‘race card’. Obama knows where he was born and he can release documentation not at our convenience, but his.
Did the birthers not notice that the Hawaii public official statement - the one that vouched for his birth record on file as having him born in hawaii - was done Nov 1, 2008? Right before the election.
Obama’s buddy Gov Abercrombie now says he cant release the long form BC, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see it show up at the convenience of the Obama campaign, say, 2 weeks before the 2012 election. They will wait until the point of maximum egg-on-face for the other side to pull the BC out of the hat. Those birthers expecting something surprising or controversial in it are looking in the wrong place, IMHO, its not there but elsewhere.
“We sure do have a different definition of “know”. No wonder we disagree on natural born citizen.”
Having been trained in science and engineering, I know plenty of things for which I don’t have court filings, e.g. I have evidence for the sky being blue and Alpha Centauri being the closest star to the sun without having affidavits for that evidence. An analogy ...
Me: I believe the sky is blue.
Birther: Prove it.
Me: (gives all sorts of evidence, authorities making statements, pictures, equations of light diffraction, etc. )
Birther: LOL, that wont hold up in a court of law, its hearsay.
Me: Its still evidence for the sky is blue.
Birther: But you cant PROVE its blue. I’m withholding judgement until we have PROOF.
Me: I’m not here to prove it 100%, just show evidence that indicates its the almost certain reality. What other color would it be?
Birther: The sky is green, fool (shares photoshop of green sky).
Me: Look, that’s a photoshop, even snopes says so.
Birther: Liar Obot, you expect us to believe that leftwing site? Who pays you?
Me: (stunned, shakes head, walks away)
Surely out of 200 million people that could potentially vote we can ‘spare a few’ to focus on this issue?
I just don’t get why this has to be an either/or proposition.
Some focus on the economics
Some focus on the other snubbings of the constitution
Some focus on his non-energy dictates
Some focus on his whatever.
All these issues can be brought together.
this discussion was about Beck and his comments that focusing on the birth certificate issue over others is a misuse of our resources.
____________________________________________
We only have only defining “resource”
The Constitution of the United States
If Beck wants to ignore the Articles of the Constitution, that as a American, is his privilege and right...
But as for us Conservatives in these threads...
The Constitution remains standing as the only referee in this time of national crisis...
The only national “resource” with any legal standing to determine whether or not Barry Dunham-Soetoro is eligible for the office of President of the United States is the Constitution...
and that document says NO
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.