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Cry of ‘Gun!’ Is Claimed in Fatal Shooting of Fellow Officer
NY Times ^ | March 14, 2011 | MICHAEL WILSON

Posted on 03/16/2011 10:26:05 AM PDT by neverdem

Nassau County police officers who witnessed the fatal shooting of a fellow officer last weekend said that the victim was wearing his badge and that they did not hear the officer who shot him identify himself or yell anything before firing, the president of the Nassau police union said Monday.

“No one heard, ‘Stop! Police!’ ” James Carver, the president of the Nassau County Police Benevolent Association, said.

However, someone seems to have yelled something: officers have said that a civilian at the chaotic scene — possibly a retired New York City police sergeant — was heard yelling “Gun! Gun!” or words to that effect just before Officer Geoffrey J. Breitkopf, who was in plain clothes and carrying a rifle, was shot on Saturday night, Mr. Carver said.

If the account is accurate, it adds a member of a third police department, albeit retired, to the scrum of officers outside a crime scene where a lack of recognition among officers proved fatal. The officer who fired the fatal shot was from the Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s police department.

The union’s account of the shooting of Officer Breitkopf, 40, a 12-year veteran of the Nassau County force, also suggests that his fellow Nassau officers knew he was a police officer but that the transit agency officer who shot him, Glenn Gentile, 33, did not.

The shooting occurred outside a home in Massapequa Park where, a few minutes earlier, a deranged man, Anthony DiGeronimo, 21...

--snip--

Little was known about Officer Gentile’s career. He joined the department in 2006, a spokesman for the transit agency said. His union declined to comment, and attempts to reach him on Monday were not successful. On Sunday, the Nassau County police commissioner, Lawrence W. Mulvey, said it was unlikely that he would be charged with a crime...

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; News/Current Events; US: New York
KEYWORDS: banglist; breitkopf; donutwatch; hoplophobia; triggerhappy
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To: livius; cyborg; Clemenza; Cacique; NYCVirago; The Mayor; Darksheare; hellinahandcart; Chode; ...
“Gun” is a warning word that cops use when the (supposedly unarmed) suspect brings out a weapon. At that point, it’s their lives - or his. If you were a cop, how would you vote?

Livius, I hope I would have the presence of mind to judge whether the firearm was being aimed or not, or about to be aimed. From what I read about this story, the M4 was slung over his shoulder, muzzle down. IMHO, someone should have given a command to drop the weapon. This reaction was 'shoot on sight' from hoplophobia.

LI officer doomed by cry of 'gun'(NY)

Wake Set For L.I. Police Officer

FReepmail me if you want on or off my New York ping list.

21 posted on 03/16/2011 12:38:42 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi minh oi)
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To: neverdem

>>Funny thing is such a defense would be extraordinarily strained if used by a soldier in a gunfight investigation in a warzone where, by definition, their lives are in danger and reaction-time & training are paramount.
>
>I think you might get some arguments about that. Once units make contact, then all bets are off.

That is after-contact, yes; I was thinking about _initiating_ contact rather than responding to it (to draw a parallel to the story presented in the article).

Firing your weapon because someone yells ‘gun’ is/was a No-Go when I was deployed to Iraq; there are valid reasons for Iraqis to have guns, namely the same reasons that American Citizens can and should have guns.

>It this case, the original perp was already shot and down, but it appears this johnny come lately in planclothes with a M4 slung upside down over his shoulder gets wasted after this retired NYPD sergeant freaks out upon seeing the M4, and Gentile overreacts and kills him.

Exactly.
To continue the “war-zone” example parallel to what you lay out would be [somewhat*] analogous to a QRF (Quick Response Force) person laying waste to an Iraqi with a weapon at a check-point that had just seen action... only to find out that the Iraqi had been a member of the Iraq Police who had been assisting the US’s forces.

*There is a significant difference in that the QRF is an official unit acting on its given mission, while the retired Sergeant has no such official capacity.

>I wonder how much of the militarization of the police has caused this?

I would venture to say 100%.
There are some serious problems with the militarization of police forces; two of the big problems are:
1 — The police tend to see themselves in an adversarial relationship to the Citizen and actively seek such a position.
2 — Invariably any foul-up, mistake, over-reaction, or abuse the police act in while “playing army” is in-accountable; cases in point: what happened to agents involved in Ruby Ridge or Waco? (Virtually nothing; oh, there were dog-and-pony show ‘investigations’ and hearings... but when the smoke cleared the agents walked away with nothing substantially more than a slap on the wrist, if even that.)


22 posted on 03/16/2011 1:40:58 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: livius
The last thing we want is a Rambo-wannabe who shoots without evaluating the threat. It's insane. It's criminal. It's the act of a coward.

In this example, the guy was not suspected of anything...but the boys decided he needed to die because some ass shouted “gun”.

And cops wonder why people have lost so much respect for them.

23 posted on 03/16/2011 1:50:59 PM PDT by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: livius

>You don’t seem to realize how little time it takes for a bad guy to whip out a gun and shoot. Cops are trained to hear the word “gun” and turn immediately to the suspect and simply shoot. There’s no time to evaluate anything.

That’s funny; during my train-up for deployment to Iraq we were constantly drilled to “be aware of our surroundings” and that included evaluation.
Now, do you *really* want to tell me that a police officer here in the states has less time to react than a soldier deployed overseas to a war-zone?
Furthermore, do you really want to endorse the implicit assertion there that a police officer here in the states should be held to less account when dealing [presumably the majority of the time] with Citizens than a soldier is when dealing with foreign nationals, again, in a war-zone?

>When the bad guy has a gun, only one person is going to go home from this encounter. And the cops want it to be them who goes home, not the bad guy who got off a couple of shots while they were “determining if there was a threat.”

You and I are, I think, on opposite sides of the debate: you seem to be endorsing the idea that a fast-answer, even if ultimately wrong, is better, whereas I contend that a correct answer is better. (i.e. who cares if you can instantly jump up and yell ‘five!’ as an answer to a summation; in a vanishingly small chance you will be right (those sums whose accumulation are indeed 5), in all other situations even a pen-and-paper approach (correctly done) will yield a better answer: the correct one.)

>You obviously don’t know the speed of a bullet.

Depends on the round’s propellant-payload; I do know that the .45 ACP is sub-sonic in all except the oddest of atmospheric conditions.


24 posted on 03/16/2011 1:55:33 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark

Thanks for your service!


25 posted on 03/16/2011 1:56:30 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi minh oi)
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To: neverdem

Police are far to powerful. Far to well armed. Far to much swagger. Far to trigger happy. At least this time they just shot one of their own.

The who cabal of Police, courts, prosecutors, city hall, the whole concept needs to be re thought. Needs to be weaker and humble, and underfunded. Right now it is just a roosting place for otherwise unemployable lawyers, or lawyers between firms.

The cops special union protections. They are far to aggressive far to unaccountable and to well armed. make them keep one round in the breast pocket and the weapon in the glove box. It will be safer for them and safer for us.


26 posted on 03/16/2011 2:01:10 PM PDT by DariusBane (People are like sheep and have two speeds: grazing and stampede)
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To: neverdem

Ah, you’re welcome.


27 posted on 03/16/2011 2:05:34 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: livius

Just because I see someone with a gun, I do NOT assume they have any criminal intent, regardless of what 3rd parties yell out. Maybe they are just carrying a gun.


28 posted on 03/16/2011 2:27:02 PM PDT by 2harddrive
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To: OneWingedShark; 2harddrive

One of the things you have to evaluate is the situation in which you find yourself at that moment. The cop was not walking along the street with his family on his way to McDonalds - he was at a scene where somebody who had already killed another person (with a knife) was holed up. You all obviously don’t know anything about this, but “gun” is what cops scream when the perp has suddenly turned out to be armed with a firearm instead of just a knife, and this means your decisions about what you are going to do have to be a lot faster. Unless you are honestly ignorant enough about firearms to think, oh, hey, the cop could shoot the gun out of his hand...but, nah, I can’t believe you’re that ignorant.

It’s easy for you guys at your keyboards. But take a walk in some not great part of town and think how it would be for you to go into a situation where you know that only one of the two people in that situation is going to go home. I suspect you’d want to be that person.

This “police buff” retiree was entirely irresponsible, and in my opinion should be charged with murder.


29 posted on 03/16/2011 3:32:24 PM PDT by livius
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To: livius
One of the things you have to evaluate is the situation in which you find yourself at that moment. The cop was not walking along the street with his family on his way to McDonalds - he was at a scene where somebody who had already killed another person (with a knife) was holed up. You all obviously don’t know anything about this, but “gun” is what cops scream when the perp has suddenly turned out to be armed with a firearm instead of just a knife, and this means your decisions about what you are going to do have to be a lot faster. Unless you are honestly ignorant enough about firearms to think, oh, hey, the cop could shoot the gun out of his hand...but, nah, I can’t believe you’re that ignorant.

Thank you for the complement, even if somewhat backhanded.
Though I think you misunderstand my points; very concisely stated the whole incident happened because of a violation of one of the Four Rules of Firearm Safety, to wit: know your target and its surroundings.

Just because someone has a gun doesn't mean that someone else doesn't have one (i.e. there could be more than one armed person); it would be like yelling "the guy in the hat!" and then being surprised when the person you're talking to thinks it's the other guy in a hat. The whole thing was a failure to know one's surroundings.

It’s easy for you guys at your keyboards. But take a walk in some not great part of town and think how it would be for you to go into a situation where you know that only one of the two people in that situation is going to go home. I suspect you’d want to be that person.

I actually open carry fairly frequently, and I have been deployed into a war-zone.
But let me ask you this: what makes you presume to think that I would go out into the "bad part of town" seeking a confrontation? Wouldn't using my firearm be, generally speaking, my Last Resort? This is fundamentally a different situation than that described here, what was described here is the thinking of the firearm as a first resort, and not just that but an unthinking (or reflexive) First Choice.

This “police buff” retiree was entirely irresponsible, and in my opinion should be charged with murder.

Agreed; however, the police officer who fired the weapon should also be charged.

30 posted on 03/16/2011 3:54:54 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: neverdem

darn it. No medals or commendations for anyone after this shooting.


31 posted on 03/16/2011 4:13:44 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (I disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it -Voltaire)
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To: livius
Cops are trained to hear the word “gun” and turn immediately to the suspect and simply shoot.

You've been watching to much TV.

32 posted on 03/17/2011 9:01:57 AM PDT by Mr.Unique (My dream thread: Mormon cop shoots Catholic Freeper's Pit Bull and takes his Macbook Pro.)
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