Hiya SE...I posted thebelow on another thread but I’ll paste here for more thought.
I’ve read up a bit on this and just listened to John Bolton, who I respect.
Lookit, I seriously understand that the alternative to Muburak, as it is currently being alleged, would be a more draconian regime called the Muslim Brotherhood.
However....Muburak’s been dictator of Egypt for 19 years now. He hasn’t done the country much good at all.
Maybe it’s the American in me, but I truly believe that all people just want to be free. Humans, no matter the religion, race or creed, want to live their lives, be with and raise their families, pursue their happiness, without some damn dictator/despot running their lives. Yes, I believe this.
Not long ago the poor Iranian people were out rioting as they too wanted freedom from the oppression by those sons of camels who so often take over these countries controlled by that oppressive religion, Islam.
I’m on the side of the Egyptian public on this one. I think a guy that’s been so corrupt, nasty and mean as Muburak for nineteen years, well I think it’s time for him to go.
And never mind, for just a minute here, that America might be better served with Muburak still in charge in that he’s “secular” and friendly with Israel. I don’t like dictators and the thought of being ruled by one for so many years just rubs me wrong.
If these Egyptians are sucessful at throwing over Muburak and they put the Muslim Brotherhood in charge, effectly replacing one form of oppression with another, well then shame the hell on them.
But I can’t get beyond that this Muburak guy’s been around so long and it’s time for him to step down. Who wants to spend their lives dominated by some a**hole whose credentials are what, exactly?
In Iran in 1979 most people were truly against the Shah and thought that overthrowing him would result in freedom and democracy. They were naive. Yes Mubarak is a pig, but those who are leading the overthrow are fooling the public into thinking they will bring freedom to Egypt.
Just remember what happened in Iran. Do not for one minute make the mistake of thinking that the power behind these people wants democracy. That was the claim in Iran, too, and that didn’t work out well—for anyone.
Mubarak isn’t a saint thats for sure.
From what I heard on Fox this morning the Muslim Brotherhood is behind these protests and the effort to overthrown Mubarak. They are muslim fundamentalists who have been using imams and the mosques to brainwash the younger population. Very similar to the method used in Iran to overthrow the Shah.
correct.
Remember when those in Iran rioted against tyranny and their islamic Govt?
Obama said nothing about the Govt, now today we have riots led by the muslim brotherhood and obama says the Govt should tone it down.
Just when will most American Jews wake up?
Of course, here in the real world the effects of an Egyptian Islamic state would not be confined to Egypt... at the very least, it would shut down the Suez Canal, and probably destabilize the entire region (Jordan is also apparently experiencing unrest). The Saudis are probably beginning to shift nervously in their seats, too.
Not too sure I like the idea of the entire Middle East being in the clutches of militant Islamic rulers....
And when they begin to threaten Israel, we have to consider the likelihood that the Israelis will start popping nukes if things start looking really bad.
Shame the hell on us, if we don't have a clear-headed approach to dealing with this situation.
And shame the hell on us for electing an incompetent like Barack Obama to the presidency.
I know, I know- it’s a hell of a thing isn’t it?
This is the art of foreign policy (who many would prefer we not have at all). To stick with a brutal dictator, because after all, he’s “our” brutal dictator...or to support the uprising that appears to come from “the people”?
Though your points are very well taken, I think we should remember what happened when we encouraged “democracy” for the Palestinians. The Muslim Brotherhood that’s behind these riots and demonstrations is not now or ever going to be an ally of ours. Do we REALLY want them in control of the Suez Canal?
I don’t know- but here’s an interesting fact: when the Iranians took to the streets for freedom, this administration stayed laregely silent. Today? They tell Mubarak to turn the internet back on.
From where I sit- whoever wins this struggle- the Egyptian people will be the losers- the MB will be more ruthless and brutal than the military that’s in power now.
Hey now, he'll release the birth certificate any day now...
Folks, please...
This is Iran all over again, and in five nations that are friendly with the West. Do you not see a pattern here?
No Mubarak isn’t perfection, be there are worse things out there.
You are pleading Jimmy Carter’s old case from the 70s. That’s a massive mistake.
Kinda like the Shah of Iran in 1979?
You do know how that turned out, right?
No good answers here.
History indicates the moslems will not wait for a consensus to put them in power, but rather they will simply seize power. Apart from a growing threat to the world, that is especially not good for America's stability and security. So, shame on a lot of people.
You and I would campaign for whatever takes for freedom in the Middle East. However, based on my first hand observations (albeit a limited but fair sample), I do not believe the local ME folks have the history, frame of mind or spirit to conduct and prevail in any struggle similar to our American Revolution.
So, this could be "the day before" substantial destabilization in the ME and perhaps many other parts of the globe. Of course, there are anti-Americans within the U.S. and its government that would welcome any destabilization for their own agenda.
Do you have a link to any recent comments by John Bolton in this regard? Thanks!
Lively thread...260+ Posts
If only.. I believe it's been 29 years!
I agree with 100% You (the USA) can't call yourself an advocate of democracy only when it suits your interests. It's so obviously hypocritical that your undermining whatever good-will or reputation that you have.
>> “Maybe it’s the American in me, but I truly believe that all people just want to be free.” <<
.
Then why does half of this country advocate for tyranny?
People want something for nothing. Whoever promises more something for less nothing is a “charismatic leader.”
The wonderful, friendly world that you imagine just doesn’t exist.
You have no clue about Islam. The problem we have is believing what you state, Islam is not rational, and trying to view it through our own values, is folly.
The vast majority of Egyptians have no desire for 'freedom' in the Western sense as you or I do. Our concept is individual liberty accompanied by individual responsibilities. That concept is totally foreign to them. They have no cultural basis to even comprehend that.
They do not believe in live and let live. They do not seek individual liberty. Their orientation is to tribes or clans or sects and the 'rights' of those entities. The individual is not central to them. It is group rights and group dominance they seek.
Egypt is about to flip into a very radical, authoritarian, Islamic state where individual liberty is not permitted or even desired and groups play out for control. And that will be just fine with the vast majority of Egyptians.
Yes, Mubarak by our standards is a tin pot dictator, but for that culture, he was pretty much a pussy cat. The crazies are going to win this one, and Egypt is heading back to the 7th Century. The entire Mideast is going to blow apart because of it.
He was Vice-President when Anwar Sadat was assassinated in 1981.
-PJ
Fishtalk,
I think that you should read more history for revolutionary ventures. In the US we had a colonial rebellion, the only revolution was in our thinking as to the new government.
France, Russia, Iran, China and Hungary might be good places to start your reading. Revolutions rarely spawn anything as benign as what they overthrow.
I think it also bears pointing out that virtually all of radical islam that has plagued the world these last sixty years gets it ancestry from the Muslim Brotherhood. This is part of why Saudi’s and Egypt are so autocratic — they fought to the death with the MB and Irkahn in the 30s.
The people in the streets were sent there by the Mullahs in the mosque — radical islam is the alpha and omega of what we will watch.
I hope Mubarak will stomp it down as the glory of Egyptian freedom will be more bloody and horror filled than the dictators foot and firing squads — book it.