Sen. Lindsey Graham mulls denying illegals’ kids citizenship (MCLAME'S LAP DOG ALERT)

>> I’d forgive him for some of his sins if he pushed this through! <<

I agree with Pissant, and as post #19 noted, Graham isn't just saying this to pander to primary voters and save his butt, because he just started his second term. He's not up for re-election for another four years.

I have to admit I am pleasently surprised he's putting forth a serious proposal to end birthright citizenship. Graham has been a disappointment lately but this is a huge issue we NEED to address, and he's on the right side. Another biggie was the Iraq surge vote when he ripped the Dem opposition to shreds.

SCOTUS interpreted the 14th amendment to mean automatic citizenship for immigrant's childrens born on US soil (regardless of how long they stayed here or if the parents were legal) back in the 1890s or so. It seems the only way around this abuse of the 14th amendment is another constitutional amendment clarifying the 14th or another SCOTUS ruling that would overturn the 1890 decision ala Brown v. Board of Ed did to Plessy vs. Feragson.

Many freepers claim Graham is a clone of McCain and I don't believe that's the case. They have similar, but not identical records. Graham is usually the more consevative of the two, on issues like ANWR drilling and gun rights. (unfortunately he's turned out to be the more liberal of the two on judicial appointments.) Hopefully he can talk McCain and other unreliable Senators to support our side on this one. He certainly won't get a full fledged DIABLO like Mark Kirk or Olmypia Snowe to side with him. They'll pretend to do a "thoughtful study" of the legislation for a few weeks, then announce they've concluded it's unconstitutional and mean-spirited.

He’s not necessarily lying, this is a complex issue and one that has to be fixed one way or another for the benefit of the conservative movement, the Republican party and the USA. I can certainly see how a Republican could come to the conclusion that some sort of amnesty could be part of the package. Think of it, what exactly keeps the Hispanic population firmly in the Democratic camp? Immigration, and immigration alone. Otherwise what do you think Pablo and Maria think of the rest of the Dem platform of unlimited abortions, the advancement of the homosexual agenda, a mealy-mouthed pacifist foreign policy, denigration of religion while promoting atheism and endless layers of federal bureaucracy? Probably about the same as you do. The *only* thing keeping their vote democratic is the immigration issue. This demographic is about as ‘family values’ as you can get.

If the immigration issue can be solved once and for all, Hispanic anger over past immigration issues will fade and they will likely become a solid conservative voting block, leading to a realignment along conservative lines and perhaps the final decline of the Democrat party, much like what happened to the Liberal party in Great Britain after WWI. Wouldn’t it be nice to imagine the debate being between the GOP and a Tea Party-type block with the ‘Liberals’ sidelined to the fringes where they belong?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying amnesty is a good idea, but that as part of a package that ends the issue forever it would do more good than harm in the long run. If ‘anchor babies’ are eliminated, the border manned and secured, state aid given to illegals revoked, (outside emergency medical care) real enforcement of immigration and labor laws including summary deportation of violators, the ‘guest worker’ programs eliminated and government services provided in English only, then to get the necessary votes I could see how amnesty for non-felonious English-speaking illegals could be worth it.

Otherwise, what can we possibly do with the ten or so million illegal immigrants, the vast majority from poor South and Central American countries? They are far less able to take them back than we are to take them in. What if they say ‘no?’ Can we really march millions of unwilling people to the fence in the Arizona desert and throw them over with Mexico unwilling/unable to do much of anything for them? How many boats and planes would it take to remove the ones not from Mexico?

However it has to be part of The End of this issue, not become some generational patch where the Dems can start hammering on it again a decade later. We have to have a mandate to interdict and deport so this issue never comes up again if we give in on amnesty.

“...Immigration, and immigration alone.”

I haven’t found the above statement to be true, especially with American families who have been displaced by illegals. Quite to the contrary, many Hispanic families vote Democrat because they enjoy the Socialism, Affirmative Action, and of course, because it is what their families have done for fifty years. The most the Republican Party can hope to get of the Hispanic vote is around 30 percent. Those aren’t odds that bode well for Republicans. Illegals poll even worse for Republicans. That’s just a sad reality that Republicans better deal with. Juan McPain, the amnesty sleazebag of all time, got how much of the Hispanic vote?

“This demographic is about as ‘family values’ as you can get.”

The older families, yes, not so much the newer ones. Bill Redmond in New Mexico discovered that running pro life in Rio Arriba county is a winner, even if it was a short lived political career. He had the good luck to run against an Hispanic opponent that came out big for abortion rights. If Republicans are getting an amnesty message from that, there is a problem with their thinking. The problem is that establishment Republicans, like Juan and Graham are so fixated on placating illegals with amnesty, and keeping their liberal media happy with soft views towards traditional values, they miss the boat.

“Hispanic anger over past immigration issues will fade and they will likely become a solid conservative voting block, leading to a realignment along conservative lines and perhaps the final decline of the Democrat party, much like what happened to the Liberal party in Great Britain after WWI. Wouldn’t it be nice to imagine the debate being between the GOP and a Tea Party-type block with the ‘Liberals’ sidelined to the fringes where they belong?”

You have a basic misunderstanding of the problem. Even if Republicans and conservatives fell in lockstep with the amnesty spiel, there would not be a realignment. What past immigration issues are you referring to? The left uses race, class, wealth, whatever it can to drive wedges between people. It is standard operating procedure for the left, and like the black community, the Hispanic community isn’t going to be placated, not as long as the left controls our universities, our media, and the organizations that appeal to younger Hispanics, such as ACORN and La Raza.

“Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying amnesty is a good idea, but that as part of a package that ends the issue forever it would do more good than harm in the long run.”

This argument has been used too many times. Reagan used it to get amnesty, and then the Democrats screwed him. How many amnesties have been granted sense? Amnesty is a tried and proven failure.

“Otherwise, what can we possibly do with the ten or so million illegal immigrants, the vast majority from poor South and Central American countries?”

We can refuse to allow them to obtain citizenship. We can crack down on the people who employ illegals. We can send many of them home — where they intend to go in the future. We can persuade them to stay home where they can help their own countries develop.

The only sensible part of your debate is that the conservatives and the Republican Party should go after the Hispanic vote by standing firm on values that appeal to the older, primarily Catholic families. We should quit trying to outdo the left with amnesty. We haven’t beat the left with that game since the days of Reagan, and we aren’t going to start now. The left knows it.

And Graham is lying.

I was thinking about a long-term realignment, on the order of twenty or so years. I do think that is possible that by that time the GOP could reverse that 70%-30% figure. I think the immigration issue is the one thing that just kills us with Hispanic voters, and if that issue were to be solved we could steadily gain ground especially on cultural issues. Come to think of it I do agree that a significant block of Latino voters will be wedded to goodies from government and also there might be a tendency to ‘respect’ tradition, but that in the end culture will triumph. There’s just not a whole lot of tolerance for many of the Dem litmus test positions amongst most Hispanics that I know and read about.

As I said, amnesty alone or with weak provisions is unacceptable, but with a secure border, the elimination of ‘anchor babies’ the absence of state funds for illegals, and all or virtually all of the other provisions I noted I do think Amnesty could help solve the problem of what we do with 10-12 million people we cannot possible deport; do the math. Granted some will leave of their own accord, but apparently even the economic downturn perhaps 10% have left from the all-time high of a few years ago,thus we cannot expect a deluge even with stricter enforcement. Think of it this way, were one thousand per day to leave or be deported it would still take some thirty years for the exodus to reach ten or so million, and during that time the remaining population would have naturally doubled or trebled anyway, leaving the same number.

Even with a comprehensive reform package that seals the border as tight as can be and removes many of the incentives for people to try to come, the 20 million already here has to be addressed *somehow.* Deportation in the numbers necessary to actually reduce those numbers significantly may not be tenable. What if Mexico et al refuse to take them? Mexican officials already try to interfere in our elections on this issue, what if they simply won’t let them in? There’s also the other half or so from countries that don’t border us, how could we possible return them to places like Guatemala and Columbia? Or the Ukraine for that matter?

Pretending they’ll all just disappear is naive in my view. They’ll melt even farther into the underground, and that cannot be good for our social cohesion and security the way I see it.

Seriously, how *do* you deport 5-10 million people from the US?

“Seriously, how *do* you deport 5-10 million people from the US?”

It might pose less of a logistics problem than trying to provide them with healthcare, educations and prison space. But on that note, it is possible to deny citizenship to anyone who enters this country illegally without having a mass deportation program.

The 70 to 30 voting ratio, Democrat to Republican, isn’t getting better, it is getting worse, and an amnesty that allows the eleven to twenty million illegals that are here to become voting citizens will only make that ratio more lopsided, not less. I suppose it is good to dream, but thinking the future of the Republican Party rests on converting Hispanics from liberalism to RINOism, is silly. Amnesty certainly hasn’t accomplished that. It’s not as if we don’t have past data to analyze. Both the immediate and long term future of the GOP will be damaged by another amnesty program. Even though it isn’t going to happen, we do need to secure our borders, as well as reevaluating our immigration policies.

The culture is moving the other way, and nothing about our pop mentality, pop culture is going to do anything but speed that process up. The answer to that problem isn’t moderate, pseudo conservatism. It isn’t political. Think religion, and that is anathema to the GOP moderates who are convinced the hope of the Republican Party rests in placating the radical elements of the Hispanic community. Liberalism moves forward by driving wedges between people. Tensions and divisions between radical Hispanics, illegals, and the majority of Americans who want to stop the amnesty failure will go on as long as liberals are around to agitate.

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