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Vattel Cited: Records of the Federal Convention1787 (Natural Born Citizen)
The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787 [Farrand's Records, Volume 3] ^ | 1911 | Max Farrand

Posted on 04/23/2010 6:18:25 PM PDT by bushpilot1

Obama's supporters state there is no record the Founders used Vattel.

The second page shows the addition natural born citizen in 1787, the third page references Vattel.

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TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: certifigate; naturalborncitizen; obama; soetoro; vattel
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To: bushpilot1
Is Jesus natural born? I am trying to get into the Founders complex minds..

I think one has nothing directly to do with the other. In one case "natural" is contrasted to "supernatural", or you prefer, "miraculous" or "divine", and in the other is is contrasted to "by the laws of man". Even Constitutions are man-made laws.

In the Art. 2 of the Constitution, "natural" is being used in the same sense as Jefferson used "Law of Nature" in the Declaration of Independance.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

441 posted on 04/27/2010 4:36:43 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: bushpilot1
"or citizen” was removed 7 September 1787.

I'm confused, can you quote the "before 7 September 1787" and the "after" versions of the passage in question?

442 posted on 04/27/2010 4:39:19 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: El Gato; BP2

A Natural Born Citizen is a Citizen not made by Law. What do u think about that..


443 posted on 04/29/2010 5:36:37 AM PDT by bushpilot1
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To: El Gato

The words natural born citizen or citizen..were in the first drafts..of the constitution..

I have not looked to see what words were added first or if they were added the same time..but..i found a document dated 4 sept..with both requirements..meaning they are different..

On 7 sept..”or a citizen”..was approved to be removed..leaving natural born citizen..


444 posted on 04/29/2010 5:45:45 AM PDT by bushpilot1
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To: ckilmer
I don’t understand how vattel applies specifically to the definition of “natural born citizen”

|:>)

445 posted on 04/29/2010 5:56:01 AM PDT by ColdWater ("The theory of evolution really has no bearing on what I'm trying to accomplish with FR anyway. ")
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To: ColdWater

I don’t understand how vattel applies specifically to the definition of “natural born citizen”

|:>)
////////
I know you know. But kindly educate me. Likely there’s a line or two in there that defines natural born citizen. Then you have to establish that the framers referenced vattel as to the definition of natural born citizen.


446 posted on 04/29/2010 6:43:09 AM PDT by ckilmer (Phi)
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To: ckilmer

It doesn’t but don’t let the word get out.


447 posted on 04/29/2010 7:06:36 AM PDT by ColdWater ("The theory of evolution really has no bearing on what I'm trying to accomplish with FR anyway. ")
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To: El Gato

did u see the 1759 English edition of vattel?


448 posted on 05/02/2010 3:10:44 AM PDT by bushpilot1
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To: El Gato; BP2

Vattels Law of Nations was strongly influenced by Leibnitz and Christian von Wolff


449 posted on 05/02/2010 3:16:24 AM PDT by bushpilot1
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To: pissant

1759 Vittal English edition located..need to verify it..it is posted..not sure if all of it is on line..but we can find from the source its location..

The table of contents translates the 212 paragraph indegenes to citizen...


450 posted on 05/02/2010 5:15:01 AM PDT by bushpilot1
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To: brityank

parts of the 1759 english edition is posted..in the natural born citizen..it translates the word we are looking for..need to verify it.


451 posted on 05/02/2010 5:18:21 AM PDT by bushpilot1
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To: brityank; BP2; El Gato; Fred Nerks

http://www.ilabdatabase.com/member/catalogues.php3?catnr=3310&membernr=1661

Law Book Collector: Has 9 Vattel Books
various years.

. 33 Terminal Avenue . Clark . New Jersey 07066-1321 .

. Tel: 732-382-1800; Toll Free 800-422-6686 in USA or Canada .

. Fax: 732-382-1887 .

. Email: law@lawbookexchange.com .

Any one want to send him an e mail regarding the elusive 1760 Edition. He does not list it.

This web site mentions the 1760 Edition:

http://www.duhaime.org/lawmuseum/lawarticle-589/emerich-de-vattel-17141767.aspx

I screwed up posting the 1759 Edition.


452 posted on 05/02/2010 5:01:34 PM PDT by bushpilot1
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To: bushpilot1
I screwed up posting the 1759 Edition.

The 1759 edition and the 1760 one are the same translation. It's just that they went to print with Volume I before they had finished translating Volume II. It's no wonder the translation suffers in spots.

453 posted on 05/02/2010 7:06:43 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: ColdWater; ckilmer
I know you know. But kindly educate me. Likely there’s a line or two in there that defines natural born citizen.

It doesn’t

The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.
From "Law of Nations",Volume I, section 212. Now I know that is the 1793/97 translation. But the founders had the original French version, which many of them could read and translate for themselves, The later translation is just better in this instance. The original French said (less diacritical marks, sorry about that) :

Les citoyens sont les membres de la societe civile : lies a cette societe par certains devoirs et soumis a son autorite, ils participent avec egalite a ses avantages. Les naturels, ou indigenes, sont ceux qui sont nes dans le pays, de parens citoyens”

454 posted on 05/02/2010 7:25:05 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: El Gato; ColdWater

Now do you see a footnote associated with “natural born citizen” that references vattel Law of Nations”,Volume I, section 212


455 posted on 05/02/2010 10:17:30 PM PDT by ckilmer (Phi)
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To: ckilmer
Now do you see a footnote associated with “natural born citizen” that references vattel Law of Nations”,Volume I, section 212

Do you see any to anything else?

Vattel was mentioned many times during the Consittutional convention. But since they never discussed nor debated the clause in question, except perhaps in the committees which did not keep notes or other records, there is no such mention of this definiton. Nor of any other. No footnote mentioning some common law principal or case, no referance to some English case law. So that cuts both ways.

We know that as soon afterwords as 1814, The Supreme Court, in the person of Justice Marshall, quotes that particular section of Vattel as to the meaning of "natives", which was the same thing as "naturales" in the the sentence in "Law of Nations" section 212.

456 posted on 05/03/2010 7:32:49 AM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: Red Steel

The Law of Nations: or, Principles of the Law of Nature. London: printed for J. Newbery ... [and 8 others], 1759-1760.

This is an English translation of the French Le Droit des Gens: ou, Principes de la Loi Naturelle, which first appeared two years earlier. Vattel’s intention was to bring Wolff’s ideas to a wider audience; however, some critics believe Vattel’s own ideas on international law are more sophisticated than Wolff’s. Nussbaum, for example, praises Vattel’s discussion of the law of neutrality as superior, and adds that,”Vattel’s attitude is more humanitarian, more cosmopolitan, and ... even democratic.”x

First published: 1758
Other editions in the Riesenfeld Research Center:

Le Droit des Gens, ou, Principes de la Loi Naturelle, 1758
Le Droit des Gens, ou Principes de la Loi Naturelle, 1773
Le Droit des Gens, ou, Principes de la Loi Naturelle, 1775


457 posted on 05/07/2010 5:32:59 AM PDT by bushpilot1
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To: bushpilot1

Bttt....


458 posted on 09/17/2010 3:04:51 AM PDT by Godebert
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To: bushpilot1

Vattel related.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2798663/posts?page=60#60


459 posted on 11/02/2011 12:04:18 PM PDT by GregNH (Re-Elect "No Body")
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To: DiogenesLamp

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2499410/posts?page=18#18


460 posted on 11/02/2011 2:33:26 PM PDT by bushpilot1
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